[Street] Time per zone vs. tricks per zone
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
Hey everybody!
I would like to discuss if it really is better to have a specific time for each zone during the street competition or to have a specific amount of tricks.
In my opinion advantages of giving a time is that the whole the competition is more on time. Like you can say qualification starts at time X and finals gonna be at time X. Another one is that all 3 groups gonna end their round at the same time, changing zones may be a bit faster.
On the other side we have tricks per zone. For example let's say every rider can do 5 tricks/lines (depending on time & size of zone). Riders would have no stress during the competition and could already think of all their tricks before the competitions starts. All the riders would have the same amount of tricks/lines in each section that would make it easier for the judges to compare all riders. I personally think it is unfair if one rider can do more tricks in a section that the other one and if we check the rulebook "The ranking should be influenced by the number of tricks done, and the difficulty of the tricks", it just doesn't fit together if rider1 does 7 tricks and rider2 does 5 tricks because he was in a slower group.
What do you guys think? Any pros/cons?
Cheers Raphi
Comment
I totally agree that it should be changed from time to number of passes/number of goes/number of lines. That being said, I think the sentance "The ranking should be influenced by the number of tricks done, and the difficulty of the tricks" should be changed aswell. I think the meaning of it was, it doesn't really matter if a rider bails/doesn't land a trick as just the trick he has landed will count.
Comment
Yes the sentence is meant as you say Emile and usually also used that way. However, Raphaels Idea is good and with a small number of tricks the risk to run totaly out of time can be minimized to an accaptable gap. A Number of 5 sounds pretty good for me. It provide to the rider enough room for showing his range and its good for the judges also. The rest can stay as it is (riders must keep the row in their group) and also the sentence discussed above is then working much better :) Should be also defined if the number of tricks grow in the finals like 5 in qualification and 7 in finals or 4 in qualifications and 6 in finals ...
Comment
Since we usually allow more time for finals, we should then allow more passes/go if ever we switch to Raphi's proposition.
Comment
From an organizer's point of view, I am still undecided about Raphael's original idea, but in any case, I think the number of passes should stay unstated in the Rulebook (or at least only suggested). That is the kind of information that is very dependant on the context of the competition, and that could slow down the process on site (by-passing the Rulebook by having the discipline director make a decision, hopefully by consulting a majority of the riders, etc.).
Comment
Pro: Makes the competition fair for competitors
Con: Competition will be less fast pace, less interesting for spectators and will encourage riders to do more lines than single tricks, which I don't like but I only dislike it because it takes up more time (which this would eliminate). Would be hard for organizers to have an end time aswell...
Comment
What about number of goes for qualificaiton and timed finals?
Comment
If a rider would go for a line and do 2 or 3 tricks in his line, perfect! We save then even more time as he did 3 of his 5 tricks already :). But the problem is not that easy as it depends on the setup. SOme allow more or less just a single trick while other allow longer lines with multiple tricks and on the manu pads section riders can maybe start an endless line. So it has to defined clearly if we would limit the number of "start whatever" or the number of tricks.
Comment
Raphael, can you maybe try to prepare a first shot of a proposal here based on the discussion? So we would have soon the first Proposal and I still think your Idea is pretty good!
Comment
Sorry, totally forgot about that discussion.
I think you shouldn't reduce a line to an amount of tricks. As the length of the section stays the same for every rider, every can decide how much tricks they gonna do in a line. Usually it's not possible to do more than 5 tricks maximum in one line (if I think of all the last street comps I competed in), unless you change the direction or add flatland stuff inside. It is still the riders decision if he goes for one big trick, or a nice smooth line (or even both).
Considering the time, I think riders should have priority to the audience. What I personally hate is having stress during the competition because of time. Everybody just goes fast, some even go on the same time, because they maybe can do one more run then. And because of that judges sometime don't even see all tricks/are still writing down previous tricks.
And as Hugo said I would also leave the number of tricks open to the organisation team as it always depends on time. So if the competition is short in time, you could just reduce the amount of tricks.
Comment
"Con: Competition will be less fast pace, less interesting for spectators and will encourage riders to do more lines than single tricks, which I don't like but I only dislike it because it takes up more time (which this would eliminate). Would be hard for organizers to have an end time aswell..."
This problem can be eliminated if it is defined that a rider has to start imediatly after the judges rise their hands. This would hopefully keep the speed and it prevent also riders from starting while judges still make notes. Following Raphis comment it seems to be best then to define the number of starts, not the number of tricks.
Maybe 4 starts for qualifiction and 6 for the finals (or 3/5) could be a good number.
Comment
I think having all the judges raise their hands to show the rider they are ready would be a waste or time and energy. It,s the judges responsibility to be ready to judge the next riders, and also the responsibility of the riders to leave enough space between each other, basically just not going at the same time.
Comment
It was just an Idea but it should be enough to place one sentence in the new rule that the next rider should check if the line is free for him and don't waste time :)
So lets start to create a proposal
Old rules:
6.29 Preliminaries
Riders will be put into groups of three or four (preferably 4, but in some cases, there may need to be up to 3 groups of 3 depending on the number of competitors). Each group will be given a starting time, and they will proceed to their starting Zone. They will be given 5 minutes in each zone to perform as many tricks as possible. The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. The group will then move on to the next zone (so it will take each group 25 minutes to finish, with 5 minutes after for discussion, and it will take 10n+20 minutes to finish prelims, where n is the number of groups).
6.30 Finals
The top 5 or 6 riders will be chosen to participate in the finals, which should be a few hours later, or the next day. Finals should preferably not be before noon, because we want a lot of spectators, and we want to riders to have a chance to warm up and be ready to be at their best. In the finals, the same 3 zones will be used, and all riders will go at the same time for 12 to 15 minutes (open for discussion) in each zone. The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. There will be 5 judges in the finals, and these can be made up from some of the judges of prelims, or even riders that may not have performed their best in prelims, and did not make it into the finals
New rules:
6.29 Preliminaries
Riders will be put into groups of three or four (preferably 4, but in some cases, there may need to be up to 3 groups of 3 depending on the number of competitors). Each group will be given a starting time, and they will proceed to their starting Zone. They will be given 4 lines per rider in each zone to perform as many tricks as possible. The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. The group will then move on to the next zone (so it will take each group 25 minutes to finish, with 5 minutes after for discussion, and it will take 10n+20 minutes to finish prelims, where n is the number of groups).
6.30 Finals
The top 5 or 6 riders will be chosen to participate in the finals, which should be a few hours later, or the next day. Finals should preferably not be before noon, because we want a lot of spectators, and we want to riders to have a chance to warm up and be ready to be at their best. In the finals, the same 3 zones will be used, and all riders will go at the same time for 6 lines per rider in each zone. The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. There will be 5 judges in the finals, and these can be made up from some of the judges of prelims, or even riders that may not have performed their best in prelims, and did not make it into the finals
Tis would be the minimum changes to swap from time to X tricks per line. Just a first shopt to prepare to be moved to the Proposal section.
Comment
Thanks Olaf for writing everything together!
Looking good now :)
Maybe one thing to change: that the organisator for street can decide how much starts should be done in prelims and finals (in case the whole event is short in time). I wouln't specialize on a specific amount of tricks in the rulebook. Just to make organizing maybe a bit easier.
Comment
6.29 Preliminaries
Riders will be put into groups of three or four (preferably 4, but in some cases, there may need to be up to 3 groups of 3 depending on the number of competitors). Each group will be given a starting time, and they will proceed to their starting Zone. They will be given 4 lines per rider in each zone to perform as many tricks as possible (depending on the possible time window the host can decide to reduce or expand the number of allowed lines while 3 should be the minimum). The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. The group will then move on to the next zone (so it will take each group 25 minutes to finish, with 5 minutes after for discussion, and it will take 10n+20 minutes to finish prelims, where n is the number of groups).
6.30 Finals
The top 5 or 6 riders will be chosen to participate in the finals, which should be a few hours later, or the next day. Finals should preferably not be before noon, because we want a lot of spectators, and we want to riders to have a chance to warm up and be ready to be at their best. In the finals, the same 3 zones will be used, and all riders will go at the same time for 6 lines per rider in each zone (depending on the possible time window the host can decide to reduce or expand the number of allowed lines while 4 should be the minimum). The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. There will be 5 judges in the finals, and these can be made up from some of the judges of prelims, or even riders that may not have performed their best in prelims, and did not make it into the finals
Like that ?
Comment
One thing that concerns me here. How do we decide when a line is over? Basically, what is there stopping a rider from doing one line that takes 1 minute long? In street, unlike slopestyle street, you can go backwards and line up and so on. Maybe I'm just not understanding this correctly. (I'm not a street rider ;] )
Comment
Was going to mention basically the same thing Scott said. It may not be slopestyle, but I still think riders should be heavily discouraged from lining up during the competition.. Having time before the event even starts to plan out your tricks would likely help prevent this kind of thing.
Comment
That's to say, I think this style of competition allows riders to better plan what they're going to do, instead of being so hectic they lose their places and mess up riding into a trick so they have to line up again.
Comment
I think using the word line here is confusing and we might fall into a competition that resembles slopestyle street.
Can we use the terms number of goes, or number of passage? Lines refers to a tricks done in succession, and street competition is about the landed tricks, not about doing big lines like slopestyle street.
Comment
That makes sense to me.
Comment
For me too, makes more clear what it means.
Comment
6 lines per rider
I agree with Emile and looks like you all do aswell.
Raphi! Take your lines to slopestyle, we wanna see bangers!
Comment
6.29 Preliminaries
Riders will be put into groups of three or four (preferably 4, but in some cases, there may need to be up to 3 groups of 3 depending on the number of competitors). Each group will be given a starting time, and they will proceed to their starting Zone. They will be given 4 goes per rider in each zone to perform as many tricks as possible (depending on the possible time window the host can decide to reduce or expand the number of allowed goes while 3 should be the minimum). The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. The group will then move on to the next zone (so it will take each group 25 minutes to finish, with 5 minutes after for discussion, and it will take 10n+20 minutes to finish prelims, where n is the number of groups).
6.30 Finals
The top 5 or 6 riders will be chosen to participate in the finals, which should be a few hours later, or the next day. Finals should preferably not be before noon, because we want a lot of spectators, and we want to riders to have a chance to warm up and be ready to be at their best. In the finals, the same 3 zones will be used, and all riders will go at the same time for 6 goes per rider in each zone (depending on the possible time window the host can decide to reduce or expand the number of allowed goes while 5 should be the minimum). The riders are assigned an order and they may only attempt a trick when it is their turn. The order should be presented in writing as well as announced before the competition. Riders may choose to skip their turn in the event of an injury or any other reason. There will be 5 judges in the finals, and these can be made up from some of the judges of prelims, or even riders that may not have performed their best in prelims, and did not make it into the finals
Like that ? (just change lines to goes and change the minimum allowed in flanls to 5 goes)
Comment
There numebrs seem very low. For the finals at Unicon, I pulled out my judges scorings and for zone 3 for example, I know Christian Huriwai landed at least 6 tricks ,and he bailed some times that is for sure. 6 goes really seems like a very very small amount of goes. Maybe someone in possession of footage of the street competition from unicon could count how many goes the riders had to give us an idea. I think for the finals it should be more around 8-12 goes and prelims 5 - 8 goes
Comment
How many riders was there per group and how much time did they have per zone?
Comment
Would be great to get final input here to start the proposal. Maybe simply comment what fits best (keep the time in mind). Here the options:
1: Q =3-4 / F = 5-6
2: Q = 4-6 / F = 6-9
3: Q = 5-8 / F = 8-12
Comment
To push you a bit I create the proposal (I guess Raphi is somewhere in the snow :) )
So please check it and comment if needed.
Comment
This was tested at EUC and the competition seem to go really slowly. Comments from other riders that were there? Emile? Raphi?
Comment
"tested"
We have to take into consideration that the judges were unexperimented and the riders were tired (it was 1am).
That being said it will be a little slower under normal circumstances, but here are some other observations I have made
-removes pressure from the rider, can focus more on tricks
-removes pressure from rider, the competition isn't fast paced anymore
-riders respect the order more
-riders can prepare themselves better for competitions
I personally prefer time, especially for finals, as it pushes the riders, but for qualifications, I think number of goes si better as it makes it fair for everybody, as in finals only have one group it cannot be unfair.
Comment
Please some more comments from the participants of the test competition. Then I could revise the proposal and start voting.
Comment
I think the main reason behind the number of goes is the fairness to all the riders in different groups. When in finals though, there is no more reason for number of goes as there is only one group.
Time makes it more exciting, I believe, and it should be timed finals but I do think numbers of goes is better for qualifications
Comment
Is this proposal ready to be voted on?
Comment
yes