Attempts for world record (Closed for comments)
Comments about this discussion:
Started
I don't see the point of being able to go for a world record attempt after the high jump competition is over.
Doesn't it defeat the whole point of the competition? If someone jumps higher than the first place, it really doesn't seem to make any sens.
Getting a world record usually has to be done in competition, so you have to perform well under pressure.
At EUC there was so much confusion because Pierre jumped higher with 136cm and Aidan got first place with 132cm
Comment
A good question. I think Track & Field (the non-unicycling type) might only allow world records from official competition events. This guarantees that the records were set under controlled and proper conditions.
But I'm not sure if we should limit people to that. We have so few big competitions, and most countries may not have any at all. For this reason, I think we have different levels of world records. Competition records are much harder to do, since you have to do it within the restrictions of a competition event. Non-competition records allow you infinite tries. but if you can prove you jumped higher than anyone else ever did, and under all of the correct conditions, why not let that be a world record as well? Such records would tend to always be beyond what can be done in competition.
Depending on the sport, there are world records, National records, regional records, age records, Olympic records, etc.
Comment
This is a good point, Emile. If we don't define when people can get a world record, then I feel that someone could just set up a system in their backyard, find a few "judges" on the street, and set a new record. Now, the question is whether we want this to be possible or not. I could see it both ways. I suspect some people would like it to be more fluid -- as long as you follow the rules and have it witnessed, it counts. Others will probably want it in a more rigid situation. I could see it going either way.
Comment
https://unicycling.org/unicycling/world-records/
This does need some improvements and I do like the idea of having competition records separate from world records. This works similarly for other athletics. There is an olympic record for swimming the 100m backstroke and there is a overall world record. Usually the Olympic records are slightly slower because the conditions for setting the records are harder.
Comment
I agree to Scott but this will be part of the world record committee which will open once the rulebook committee is closed. As Scott pointed out, the WR rules need some adjustments based on the experiences over the last years and this issue will be discussed for sure also again. One reason to have this option is that we have areas in the world with a mountain of competitions and others with one or no competition. How ever, even if we dont split it, it can be marked as a record done while a competition or done while a Show event (while adding then the best reulst done while a competition also.
Comment
Well Scott, they don't have another at the 100m after the olympic finals to see if than can run faster than they just did.
If we would compare athletics to unicycling, we would have world record and Unicon record.
Comment
We do have world record and Unicon record. The Guinness world record for 100m sprint on a unicycle is different from the Unicon record. I haven't checked it recently, but the record used to be Peter Rosendahl, at a "show" or promotional event in Las Vegas (in the 90s). It was held under the same conditions as IUF Track racing at the time, but not at a unicycle competition. Later records may have been set at Track meets in Japan.
At Unicon III we had the official 100m final, and followed that with several attempts to set a new Guinness record. Using all the same equipment and officials, the same group of riders went down the track about 10 more times to see how fast we could get. In some of those races the fast riders fell off; in some one was much faster than the other, etc. But the end result, fastest heat (13.71 sec. there) was faster than the single 100m race for Unicon.
Within the rules for Jumps, the conversation about setting records should probably center around the specific conditions required for a record to be "countable". Accurate measurement, proper stands or platform, witnesses, etc.
Comment
As for me, I agree with Emile. The opportunity should be given to everyone to break the unofficial record after the competitions (with as many tries they want); but to make an official world record, you have to perform your very best during the race. The conditions of a competition make it more serious, 'official'.
Comment
"World Record" should apply to anyone, anywhere in the world, who can break a record under all the proper conditions. That includes post-competition attempts at Unicon, and Joe Blow in his back yard (with video, witnesses, and whatever is specified by our WR Committee). So you would have a Unicon record, which is only set during the actual competition, and you would have World Records, set at other times. Then you can also have the European Record (set in Europe), National Record (needs specific definition as to who can set/break it--do they have to live in that country?), State or Province Record, etc. The big ones would be World Record and the records set at the big competitions.
But only a small group of people are able to attend Unicon, and Unicon only happens once every two years. It cannot be the only venue for breaking records for things as basic as high/long jumps.
Comment
That's part of the game. If you can't attend an event, you don't get a title.
Why accommodate people who don't go to competitions, its too bad for them if they couldn't come.
Comment
There is always the unofficial world record and the official one. Having an unlimited amount of tries trying for the world record renders the whole competition useless because there, you only have two tries.
Right now it seems that we're trying to make the unofficial world records official, which is useless. People know unofficial records and know they're done outside of competition hence they are totally different.
Comment
John got this exactly right. This is something that needs to be addressed more precisely in the world record committee, which will be starting after the rulebook committee finishes. I agree that there are Unicon Records and World Records, but I disagree with Emile that there are "official" and "unofficial" in the sense that he is describing it. Just like in many sports how there are Olympic Records (which only have a change to be broken every 4 years) and World Records (which can be broken at any time, as long as it gets certified). The idea here (and also what happened at EUC in Cologne) is that because a large event already has the equipment setup and the witnesses to make the attempt official, it would be nice to let the riders try to break the world record even after the official competition is over.
Comment
Yes Emile, we are talking about labeling and structure. We don't want to call any kind of record 'unofficial' if people went to a lot of trouble to do it under the proper conditions. It's just not a competition record.
Off topic, I don't know if you realize how much you turned your nose up at people who love unicycling but can't afford to go to faraway competitions. I know lots of people who would love to go to Unicon, or even NAUCC, but for various reasons are unable to do so. Mostly money, of course, but sometimes time and other aspects of life.
Comment
I think you both misunderetood what I was saying when Im talking about unofficial world record.
There always has been and there will always be unofficial world records, there person having done the most with a video proof posting it online, even if the landing areas is bigger than 136x136cm, it doesn't matter, its an unofficial world record.
What happened at EUC was so confusing for all the riders. People kept coming up to me asking why didn't Pierre win because he had jumped higher than Aidan. Same thing on Facebook afterwards. Again, it really defeats the purpose of the competition.
John, it's not turning my nose up as you say, it's part of the game. If you can't go to Unicon, how are you supposed to get a title there, it makes no sense, once again.
Comment
Seems like everyone is mostly on the same page. The world record high jump would have more relaxed requirements than the competition record, and that's how it should be, if the world record high jump isn't the highest documented jump then it is silly. Competiton world records have strict, artificial requirements to make those conditions reasonably reproducible at any competition and having the record under those conditions may require different strengths. So there would be the main world record that people recognize as being the best that has ever been done, and you'd have the competiton world record that implies going to a competition and performing under those rules and number of attempts.
So having an separate time to have people try to break the general world record is fine, it's just not technically necessary because the same thing could be done whenever and wherever people feel like it.
Comment
Here is a short list of how it's been going in the past 8-9 years for unofficial high jump world record
2006
Ryan Atkins
109cm
https://youtu.be/-_EiOkoEee0?t=3m25s
2007
Mark Fabian
141cm
2008
Mark Fabian, Joe Hodges
130cm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TPT7vLl15s
2011
Mike Taylor
141cm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ct7JgUlhk
And it will keep going exactly the same way even if this new thing is going to be put in place. Only difference is that it renders the competition world record useless and is totally unfair as competitions have limited amount of tries and you compete under pressure.
Comment
Yes there will definitely always be unofficial records. The important thing is being able to tell which ones are the unofficial and which are actual, official ones. To do an official one outside of a competition will have stringent requirements (TBD by WR Committee), so it will involve much more attention to detail and documentation to make it into the actual IUF record books. Meanwhile, the unofficial record-makers will still be able to inspire people by pushing the boundaries.
Thanks for posting those links; a cool little history of growing jumps! I think the winning height at the first High Jump competition (over bar, 1995 USA NUC) was around 55cm. I miss Ryan Atkins; hope he's doing well.
I notice that "high jumps to platform" often end with the tire clinging to the edge of the platform. They sort of aren't jumping the full height in one jump, but finishing it with a small after-hop. But I guess that's part of what separates it from High Jump over a bar.
You still may be missing the point -- or perhaps the value -- of competition records. They are cool to set/break because they are so hard to do! It may take a different mentality to do well under the pressure of competition, compared to taking unlimited tries with relatively no pressure. Each has its value but they are also very different. That's why athletes place such a high value on Olympic records. You only get a chance to do it every four years! They don't have to happen in the finals, of course, but could be anywhere during a competition at the Olympics. Same for Unicon, assuming all the setup and equipment are proper (not necessarily on a practice setup, for example).
Unfortunately I did not attend EUC and haven't read an actual report of what the problem was. Apparently there were more attempts after the competition was finished? If so, it was probably just a lack of announcements to explain what was happening. When we did the Guinness 100m record back at Unicon III it was a similar situation, only the competition race happened during the day, and the "special" Guinness races were done at the end of the day, as separate events. I think at that time it was explained to everyone that these races were only attempts to break the world record.
Comment
"Yes there will definitely always be unofficial records. The important thing is being able to tell which ones are the unofficial and which are actual, official ones."
The ones that are on video outside of competition are unofficial, the ones that are in competition are official.
"You still may be missing the point -- or perhaps the value -- of competition records."
On the contrary, I think what you and Scott believe devalues it...!
Comment
In my opinion,
it should also be possible to achieve a world record in special events or after official end of competition for example where amount of jumps is limited
For me it's more important that the world record guidlines define all relevant conditions for a properly world record. I agree with Olaf and Scott there are some adjustments in the current world record guidlines necessary.
But it's the wrong committee to discuss it -> not relevant for the rulebook update