Require a back curtain (Closed for comments)
Comments about this discussion:
Started
As suggestion in the "boundaries" discussion, perhaps we should require a back curtain in Freestyle events.
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My opinions:
I like the curtain idea and it's something Patricia and I have talked about having at Unicon 18. Having a plain background makes the routine much easier to judge and it's also aethetically nice. However, I'm not sure that I am in favor of adding more host requirements to the rulebook. If this gets added to the rulebook it needs to be a Unicon Only or Large Competition Only rule. More and more events are starting to be IUF official and this is something we want to support. More requirements only hinder this.
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I like the idea of having rules that aren't intended for small competitions. Doing so might require some re-writing or adding of text in various parts of the overall Rulebook, but is a good thing. I think there are many places where we mention "smaller competitions" or otherwise divide large events from small; maybe there's a way to formalize this.
I outlined some of this in the Boundaries thread, but here it is more organized:
To create some semblance of a stage, we require a curtain across the back of the Freestyle performing space. We will not specify the color, height or width but offer recommendations. This should make it easier for good curtains to be found in various countries. Curtain height should be taller than a tall person on a Freestyle uni, perhaps a minimum of 2.5m (8 feet) or so. The curtain need not cover the entire back of the performing space, which might be very large, but should be of a minimum width. I will offer 10m to start. There should be at least one opening along the curtain, at or near the middle (giving at least three points of entry/exit). The curtain should be 15m from the front of the performing space (judges' table) for Individuals and Pairs, then closer to the back wall for Groups. Groups may move the curtain forward or back to fit their performance, but not turn it, remove it or move it far off-center.
How does that sound for the basics?
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It should be KISS (Keep it simple, stupid.) and I guess this is not. In my club, the lower gym walls are grey and in the middle is the exit from the cabins, along with the caretaker room and its window. At competitions, there is a black curtain covering the ugly grey wall, the exits and the window, which also gives nice pictures on it. This is something which is done here on an optional basis to beautify the environment, but shouldn't be written in the rules. Given Unicon 2008 in copenhagen, we had the audience surrounding the gym floor, one of the sides wouldn't be able to watch performances, which is sad (which actually happened, because a group from germany brought in a curtain on their own, to get a prop-score for it) - I guess the people on the backside were a little upset, because they needed to stand up to grasp a little view on the routine.
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It's hard to relate the KISS concept to our Freestyle judging rules. With this curtain idea, I agree the rule should be as simple as possible. I didn't specify a color, for example. While black is most common for stages, it might cause a problem for a host trying to rent only that color.
Copenhagen's gym is a reminder that all gyms are not the same. It had a large seating area in the "front", and a smaller set on the back wall. Nothing on the sides. In that case, it would be logical to position the curtain on the non-seating side. 2006, Langenthal, Switzerland was an even worse setup; the gym had very limited seating, with perhaps more than half of the spectators sitting on the floor along 3 sides. Again, a curtain could have been used against the fourth wall, but these rooms are proof of why it can't be a hard-and-fast rule if we're to use it. It is more important for Unicon attendees to be able to see the performances than it is to have a curtain. That said, in most cases I think a curtain can still make for improved performances. Also it may help come competitors who feel that they need large backdrops to create a scene.
So a curtain rule would have to contain wording that we want to create this stage-like environment, but not at the expense of blocking the view of a large portion of the audience. In Montreal, seating went all the way around but the seating in the rear wasn't essential, so no problem. Other gyms may not be so well-equipped.
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I think that there should never be audience members behind the performers. It is extremely distracting for the judges and it looks really bad in general. Also, the performs can only perform in one direction. Having additional seating to the sides is okay.
At Unicon, I think that the Freestyle gyms needs to have adequate seating so that everyone can watch from the front or side. When this is the case, the curtain is a nice addition.
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To have a curtain is a good idea. I agree that it should be a black one but other colours should be possible too.
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Scott wrote: "I think that there should never be audience members behind the performers." I agree, but I wouldn't recommend making it an absolute rule. Like theaters, some gyms are just not set up to be the best for Freestyle. Switzerland and Denmark are recent examples. I would go so far as to say the Switzerland gym was just way too small for Unicon Freestyle. While there was sufficient space to run the competition, we can't ignore the audience (ESPECIALLY for Freestyle, but for other events as well).
When you go to the circus, it is presented in the round. But unless you aren't paying attention, it's very clear that almost every performing venue has a front, two sides, and a back. Sitting in the back is never as good, and if we have to mention it, I think Freestyle performances should be "traditional" in nature, in that they are directed toward the "main" part of the audience, even if the audience goes all the way around. In other words, since it's a judged performance, it's expected to face it toward the judges. If no judges were there, I would expect it to be spread as much as possible, but this is easier for some types of routines than others.
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> audience members behind the performers. It is extremely distracting for the judges
>
A single compulsive high-frequency flashing photographer can be much worse. Man I amazed myself how angry I became while he made fair judging impossible. Even if it's a beloved person of the competitor, it's frustrating for me and all contestants (and both our time and energy).
So against (some) distraction a solid background is nice. But having it as requirement makes organizing less easy. I'd prefer it as "SHOULD" in stead of "MUST".
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I agree with Leo:
I think that adding the requirement for a curtain into the rulebook makes it more difficult to organize events.
It would be nice to have one, but it is definitely not necessary and should be up to the host to decide whether a curtain will be provided.
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I think that curtain , time etc... are not so trivial.....
For me having competent judges is more important. In the two last unicon , it seems that treaks have more influences on the judgement and artistik come to the second plan.
Somes Judjes make confusing between Artistic and Technique....
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Alexis, perhaps this is an English tranlation problem. Do you think curtain, time, etc are very important, or not very important?
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not imptant.... the time for group is good....... and the curtain not necessary.
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In English
"not important" = "trivial"
"not trivial" = "important"
:)
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> Somes Judjes make confusing between Artistic and Technique....
>
Most unicyclists at a UNICON are no artists, and so average artistic skills are very low.
Most unicyclists at a UNICON are have extreme high unicycle skills compare to an average professional/experienced performer.
Most judging panels consist of above unicyclists, which reflects on their ability to judge artistic, or even recognize true skills that aren't in costume or prop gimmicks.
Back to the background: in figure skating it's no problem there is audience all around, and judges seem to be good enough to focus on what matters.
I do agree with the argument it makes judging easier, allowing less distraction. Still I prefer it as recommendation (for any major or minor contest!).
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I would argue that it's totally different in figure skating. The setting of an ice rink separates the competition space nicely from the audience. Also usually, the audience is at least 2 meters higher than the ice rink. This is not the case for all gyms for unicycling.
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I LOVE the curtain idea. Yes it costs a bit more and is a bit more hassle for the organizers but IMHO is totally worth the benefits it provides. Makes the performance look better, more professional and looks heaps better in photos and videos.
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It sounds like the majority of people think that a back curtain is a good idea and the real question is whether or not it is require or simply a strong suggestion. If people could just comment a short post on their opinion for required or suggestion then we can get closer to creating a proposal.
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I'm still completely against this. Let me explain. The original intent of this proposal is to get a stage into the gym. Another artifical thing (we just dropped boundaries) onto the gym floor. With the hope riders will feel like to be on a stage and at best use, hence ask for more curtains to use.
Host will refuse to organize freestyle events, because their location doesn't need to be covered with curtains (because it provides a nice background) nor do they have one, nor are they willing to organize one. That's a big pain in the ass for organizers.
And riders, they won't even regnoize it as something special, it will only be a wall move into the riding area but riders won't use in the idea of the original intent of this.
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Could more people comment about their opinion please? It can be simple: yes and required, yes and recommended, no add nothing to the rulebook.
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How about we start with "highly recommended". Then we can come up with the details of how to do it, much of which I offered in draft form in an earlier post (above).
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That sounds good to me. I understand that it's the holidays but perhaps afterwards would you have some time to draft a proposal, John? I'd be happy to help with the wording if you like.
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I see Thomas points about it being a hassle for organizers especially for smaller competitions. I still think that it should be required at Unicon and strongly recommended at smaller comps. It should be easy to find a curtain given most hosts have 2 years to organize Unicon and it can't cost too much to rent it for 2 or 3 days. Even if we don't agree to make it mandatory than it should be highly recommended.
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Requiring a curtain is a kill argument for some hosts that will drop the event for this reason, that's nothing what we want. Also it can never be a requirement for the rules, simply because the competition works without a curtain, it is not a mandatory requirement, it is an optional component.
For Unicons? Maybe. Imagine the last Unicons: Montreal, Brixen, Wellington and now project a curtain into the background of these gyms. That would have been a lost curtain, standing in the middle of nowhere.
A curtain makes only sense when the gym benefits from using a curtain. These reasons can be for organizational purpose or aesthetics (because the gym background is ugly) or whatever else.
Under the premise the gym will benefit with curtain usage it is worth a recommendation.
However, if this becomes a recommendation why not .... [fill in whatever optional topic comes to your mind] ... is not a recommendation? What is worth a recommendation, what not? Whatever the answer is, that can become a part of the event book for hosts that is planned.
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Every gym, and every Freestyle performance can benefit from a curtain. Yes, if it's too far away it doesn't do much. Also if you sit at the top of the seating its effect is minimized. But even for Large Groups it provides a cleaner, more neutral background, as well as all the other benefits of having a curtain; ability to enter and exit, store props/equipment, etc.
Jamey and I seem to be of similar mind on this. I like the idea of requirement for Unicon. The need for a curtain would never be a deal-breaker for a future Unicon. Certainly the cost is minimal at the scale of Unicon. I would recommend requiring it from the level of national competition on down, but I also don't think the IUF has the power to do much beyond recommending things for smaller events.
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I think Gossi has a good point about looking at the previous gyms used for Unicon. The only one that a back curtain would really have worked in was in Brixen.
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I disagree and think a back curtain would have worked really well in every Unicon I have attended (the last 11). Not sure why you think it wouldn't have worked? There were more than enough seats for all audience members to sit in front or on the sides and I can't think of any reasons why it wouldn't work. Please let us know your thoughts as to why.
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Langenthal (Unicon XIII) is the only one I can think of where a curtain would have been a problem. That gym didn't have enough room to properly do a Unicon-sized Freestyle competition. There was sufficient space for the event, but very little space for spectators, so they had to squeeze anywhere possible. A curtain could still have been used, but would have forced people to move out of the back area, but to where?
This suggests that there may be situations where the curtain could be a problem. Were I the Artistic Director for that room, I would have opted for a smaller length of curtain. The curtain rig we used at Unicon I was a portable thing intended for small shows by a single person or small group, in a small space. It was less than 6m wide, and maybe 2m tall. But it still worked as an optional entry point, and a place to store props.
Any proposal that requires curtains would have to be flexible enough to adapt to spaces that might need adapting. This can be done.
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If we are creating a rule that can be adapted then I don't see how it's really a rule at all. It seems like the simplest way to have room for adaptation in a gym like Unicon XIII would be to have the curtain be a suggestion, not a requirement. It seems silly to create a rule but then say, oh but you can have these adaptations so that you can get around having a curtain. I don't support creating rules with intentional loopholes in them.
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I should have asked this earlier but with curtain you all mean this piece that hangs down from the ceiling of the room, so really nobody can watch behind it, from any angle?
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No not necessarily. Quoted from John Foss above: "To create some semblance of a stage, we require a curtain across the back of the Freestyle performing space. We will not specify the color, height or width but offer recommendations. This should make it easier for good curtains to be found in various countries. Curtain height should be taller than a tall person on a Freestyle uni, perhaps a minimum of 2.5m (8 feet) or so. The curtain need not cover the entire back of the performing space, which might be very large, but should be of a minimum width. I will offer 10m to start. There should be at least one opening along the curtain, at or near the middle (giving at least three points of entry/exit). The curtain should be 15m from the front of the performing space (judges' table) for Individuals and Pairs, then closer to the back wall for Groups. Groups may move the curtain forward or back to fit their performance, but not turn it, remove it or move it far off-center."
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Patricia, how would you reconcile a rule for a mandatory curtain with the Unicon XIII gym situation? (Sorry, I don't remember if you were there. Here are some pictures to give you an idea: http://gallery.unicycling.com/Unicycling/Unicon-World-Unicycling/2006-Unicon-XIII-Freestyle/
I agree with you that if it's written too loosely, a reluctant host will find a way to wriggle out of it. The idea would be that it be mandatory (for the large competitions). But if the venue created unsurmountable problems, perhaps a consult with this committee, or directly with the IUF Board, would be needed to determine a workaround?
For Thomas, think portable curtain rigs. To have curtains from the ceiling would be enormously expensive, and overkill. But a free-standing, 3m tall curtain is much more manageable, and probably obtainable in any decent-sized city.
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Hi.
I just did a little list of pros and cons. (Did I miss something?)
pros:
- 1) easier to judge
- 2) performance look better, more professional
cons:
- 3)Another artificial object
- 4) more host requirements, costs
My opinion:
1)If the curtain is big enough it might help to judge easier (minimum 21m large), but I if it is too small the curtain wouldn't make a difference.
2)It all depends on the quality of the curtain. If the curtain isn't done well (fabric (glossy/mat) , sewing, structure), the event/performance could look unprofessional.
3) I personally prefer riders/groups that is/are able to create an atmosphere in his/their performance, than a rider/group that need(s) props or a props storage. The great thing about Freestyle unicycling is, that we have a wide open space, where the performer can celebrate his imagination. Do we really need to encourage more props? Do we need to set boundaries with curtains?
4) To make a curtain it takes time! Fabric is not cheap. It needs skill to make one.
I am not a big fan of the curtain. If there is a chance, would it be possible that the IUF provides a perfect curtain? Depends on the country, but maybe it would be cheaper to lend one, than to make one (time/cost). Anyway, can we see a picture or is somebody hosting a freestyle event soon for seeing/trying it out? I am open about this idea, but I think the current situation in a gym doesn't need a curtain.
....Or let's create an other event ;) :
If there is really an urge for an curtain, why not make all big Freestyle unicycle events on a gigantic stage. (Maybe only the experts) We coud have real curtains and we could finally add some flashy lights. But maybe we must change the event name. I think "unidancing" would be a nice fit. What do you think @Gossmann. ;) ;)
PS: Happy B-day Scott :-)
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Philipp missed one of the pros:
- 3) Entry, exit and the ability to hide stuff (all of which can be used to great effect).
In fact I might use the above to replace "easier to judge" because that's a relatively small factor. Instead I think of that as "easier to see/photograph", and its importance would mostly depend on the room where the competition is taking place (some would be more improved by a curtain than others).
My expectation was not for hosts to make their own curtains and stands. They would rent them, probably for the equivalent of a few hundred dollars (a very small expense in relation to the building in which they would be used).
When we perform in a theatrical environment (stage), we use the curtains that are part of that stage. This is expected, since the stage was built for performances. It doesn't matter that the curtains might be a different color (black is most common) or different height, they just provide a partition and backdrop.
Yes, I think it would be great if Freestyle competition could take place on a stage. But I don't think it's realistic for us, since the stage would have to be really big, which would mean we would have to build it. This would cost 10-20x more than just a curtain. The idea of a curtain is a compromise; a simple way to add a little bit of theater atmosphere to a room that already has a better riding surface than any stage, but doesn't look very theatrical.
I would love to have theatrical lighting also. Hey, unicyclists, you haven't really experienced performing in front of an audience until you've done it with a follow spot! Like performing for a sunset, and barely being able to see the edge of the stage. :-) When we have used theaters in the past (for competition and/or public shows), the lighting has been fabulous; creating a whole different atmosphere. The atmosphere this type of unicycling is meant to be in. But to require it would be much more expensive and complex than to simply have a curtain.