Make the competitions go faster
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
Perhaps this discussion will need to be split for high and long jump, but I thought I would start it together. Currently riders start at such a low height/length and it takes forever. We need to discuss how to make the event go faster. There are several different examples from athletics for how we can do this. For example:
- X number of attempt in total. Then competitors have to use strategy to decide how to use their attempts.
- Create some sort of new technology, and then each competitors has 2 (or 3 or 4) attempts to jump as high/long as they possibly can. Then this technology measures their result. (Using laser light gates for example.)
Other ideas?
Comment
X Number of attempt in total is a very smart Idea to shorten a competition. High Tech measuring is cool but it wont be possible for most hosts to get it, especialy if it is special / custom build stuff.
This rule would work best in combination with the bar for training, recomended in another discussion here. So in qualification a rider could have for example 3 or 4 heights / distances to go for while he can train as long as he like. this would make it possible to calculate a time for a competition like 10 participants x 3 attempts x 2 trys per attempt = 60 minutes (expected 1 minute per jump). So far the best Idea I see to stop jump contest from beeing endles!
Comment
I agree with both of you. However, just a technicality: as it currently is in athletics, competitors have 8 (?) attempts, at any height/length they want, and not 2 attempts at 4 different heights/lengths. I personnally prefer the first option. This way, riders can really manage their attempts how they want.
Additionally, I think finals should be held in the traditionnal format, to avoid multiple ties. I understand the stategic aspect involved with the proposed system, but we still shouldn't forget the point of the competition which is to see who can jump the furthest.
Comment
If we have that, then we DEFINITELY need training equipment next to the official competition high jump/long jump spot.
Comment
I can follow Hugos Idea but we still need to define then if a rider with 8 atttempts is allowed to do max 2 tries for same distance or only one or maybe 8 !? Finals can be different for sure as long as the max number of participants is fixed to make those also mostly planable.
First conclusion is then: The Idea is great, training equipment is needed then, number of attempts / way to use them must be discussed.
Comment
I think that for prelims, the rider should be able to use the 8 attempts however he wants. It makes the recording system much less complicated and keeps it easy for the rider to understand. For finals, we can for sure have other rules.
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We need some more opinions here. Should we limit the number of attempts or let riders do as much as they want?
Comment
I like the idea of a set number of attempts, and it would be fairly easy to enforce -- give a rider X "tickets" at the beginning of the competition with their number on it. Then, every time they want to attempt a jump, they hand it to the judge before mounting up, who makes sure the number on the ticket matches the number on their shirt/uni/whatever.
I don't like the idea of forcing any sort of limitation on what/how many jumps riders can attempt. If a rider wants to burn 6 attempts at a crazy-long/high jump, I think that should be acceptable. However, I think it would be difficult if we allow riders to reduce the height/length, because then we would have to be re-adjusting the bar much more frequently. So I think it might be necessary to say a rider can only stay at or increase their jump attempts. (i.e., if they have made an attempt at 100 cm, they can only jump 100 cm or higher from then on out.)
I assume by "training equipment", yall mean something like a warm-up area? Where riders can try their jumps unofficially? I think that's a good idea, but there would probably need to be multiple stations to prevent crowding. And we'd have to enforce that only riders who have not used all of their attempts can use the warm-up area.
Comment
I discussed the limit of attempts with some riders (better long jumper) before. We had at the eurocycle in switzerland 8 attempts and it was very good to make the competition faster. The riders had at the whole competition in long jump a warm body, so there were no "cold" jumps. They could jump all the attempts without greater stops or pauses. The opinion of the riders I discussed with is to have a limit at maximum 12 attempts. So the good idea for a limit is between 8 and 12 attempts. I'm absolutely for a limit.
Comment
unfortunately some rider blocked the equipment up to 30 minutes, then the rides hava in sum up to 40 - 50 attempts until they leave the jump area. We have such cases in national competitions and also in the last 2 unicons.
Thats makes no sense. In the interest of the other jumper, we need a limitation, my proposal: the organizer should have the option to limit the amount of jumps or heights / lenghts. But he must announce it in front of the competition.
Comment
I think that if the organizer wants a limited number of attempts for qualification, then the organizer must provide a practice high jump bar or high jump platform.
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I agree to Emile. Beside this the number of allowed attempts should defined in the rules, not by the host. If it is a fix number, the rider can be perfect prepared for it.
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I agree with Olaf. This number should be a fixed number of attempts, between 8 and 12. This number is also just for prelims. I think that Finals should work with the current rules with two attempts at each height.
I also think that we should have a designated starting height for finals, perhaps 5 or 10 cm lower than the worst person that makes finals. (Maybe this should be in another discussion, but I think it fits here.)
Comment
Having a fixed height to enter finals would make some competitions have 2 riders in finals and sometimes 25.
I think having around 6 riders would be good. Without being a fixed number like street competition depending on the size of the competition and the time frame available, the host should be able to choose the number of people going in finals while having a minimum and maximum number of finalists.
Comment
Of wow I just got what you meant. If we have practice equipment available, then it should be no problem to start the finals 5cm or 10cm lower than the lowest qualification height to get to finals.
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Sorry if that wasn't clear Emile. Do you have another way to write it that would be better?
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I'm the one who should be sorry, it was clear, I must have been tired when I read it.
It can always be shorter and clearer though, how about this?
The finals starting height is determined by the score of the last rider to reach qualification, subtracted by Xcm.
Comment
I would create a proposal for voting "Limitation number of attempts in Age Group jumps":
Based on practice Equipment is available and best rider can meet in a final for the Champion
=> Limit of 12 attempts will be fixed in the rulebook
no Limit of attempts in finals
finals:
Minimum length / height depends on the result in Age Group jumps as Scott proposed, amount of participant identical to the other finals (track races) not necessary to fix in the rulebook
Comment
For finals this seems very weird
"Finals: Riders get two attempts for each distance. If a rider fails his first attempt, he can choose to sit out and attempt the next distance with two fresh attempts."
It should be 3 attempts at each heigh, if you do not succeed height, you fail. The old way, the best way, a bit longer but it's finals, so only a few riders.
Comment
I like having more attempts in the final. It allows the top riders to have a chance at an even better height. Also, it means a rider must complete a height in order to move on which I think makes more sense.
I'm not sure how to write the text for this rule so that it is clear. In this case it might be helpful to have a non-native speaker write this sentence so that it is clear for all. Emile? Your English is really good but you have a good perspective for non-native speakers as well. Can you help put your suggestion into real "rule text"?
Comment
Yes, soon.
I went out and asked the opinion of the ~top 10 riders so we can have more rider feed back. When I have answers I will posthat the riders think so we can discuss moe about it before making it final.
Comment
Thanks.
Comment
In General:
At the Uncion17 I heart first time that a rider has after the first attempt failed on the next length (5 cm more Age Group or in the final 1 cm more) two new attempts. In all other Events I know the rulebook interpretation als following:
If riders first attempt failed, he can do his second attempt on the same height / length or heigher / longer.
Independent of new length / height or remaining on the corrent he has only a second attempt.
Compare Long final Unicon 17 and Unicon16 male:
Uncion17 longjum final male:
This final takes about 2 hours time, normally the same time also for female, for the visitors it's too long and a Problem for the organizer to realize.
=> the main reason was 2 attempts for each new length.
The time for the Long jump final at unicon 16 was shorter.
In German Championship discipline Long and high jump is included the track and field competition. for the complete competition the organizer has one Weekend for all. If the jump finals will take in sum 5 hours time the organizer can't offer jump finals.
Therefore we must find a compromise:
My proposal:
For each length / heigth the rider has 3 attempts.
But if he goes to the next length / height he has only the remaining attempts of the height / length before.
Further comment:
At Uncion17 riders (mail / female) from Germany are very surprised about the rulebook Interpretation for amout attempts in case of new height / length and they see no advantage on that Interpretation!
Comment
I think Reiner is suggesting a three strikes method. Basically you only get three total mistakes and it doesn't matter what distance they occur at.
Is this correct?
Comment
I just called Jens Feurer (one of the judges at Unicon17 and jump trainer our club) and also my daugther Valerie (Long jump Champion):
They gave me independent following feedback:
If the first attempt failed and rider goes to the next length / height. He should only have the remaining attempt not more.
It would also be ok if the rider will have in future three attempts but in sum max. 2 failed attempt and the next must be valid.
examples:
Long jump:
300 cm:
a)
1. attempt:failed
2. attempt:failed
3. Attempt: valid
3 new attempts for the next lenght
b)
1. Attempt failed
310 cm:
2. attempt failed
3. attempt failed
competition finished
I only would apply this three strikes method for finals, I hope it's clear now.
Comment
I am still confused.
Comment
I try it again:
If riders first attempt failed, then he can do it's second attempt on the same height / length or go higher / longer. If he go to the next height / length, he will not have the 2 new attempts.
Option for finals:
the rider can have 3 attempts instead of 2. I would write it as option in the rulebook (in case of limited timeslot for jump finals)
I will not agree on a rulebook with 2 or 3 attempts in each height or length independent of failed attempt(s) before.