Safety gear
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Started
Hello everyone. I'm bringing up the kneepads issue again. I think it's absolutely absurd that we are forced to wear kneepads. I find it really unconfortable when racing and I feel like it hinders how fast I can pedal comfortablly. I think this is an even bigger issue for ungeared riders since they have to pedal faster to keep up with geared riders. Also, I find it makes our sport seem less profession. Profession road cycling (and cyclocross) would never use kneepads.
I absolutely understand the desire to keep Road Racing safe, but at the speeds that the majority of riders are riding now, kneepads really don't do much.
Of course, ridings will always be allowed to wear kneepads if they choose.
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The more powerful argument is whether or not the knee protection is actually meaningful in a crash. Comparing us to Road and Cyclocross racers is weak, in that those sports have two wheels and when they crash, it's usually in different circumstances. What I do know from Road bike racing is that crashes can be bloody and ugly. So back to the question of what difference knee protection actually makes? A discussion about that could be instructive. What level of protection have you seen from knee protection in fast Road riding? I confess that I usually go bare-kneed for non-competitive Road riding, so I don't have much to offer there.
I will add that, wearing volleyball kneepads never hindered me in Track racing, including back in the days when I was wearing them and many others weren't. My ability to out-pedal them didn't seem to be affected by kneepads. If everybody is wearing them, the "hindering" is shared by all.
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In response to your second point, the comparison to Track racing is not fair. In track everyone is on the same equipment. That's not the case for Road Racing. Also the argument that everyone is equally hindered by the gear is not a logically sound reason to require the gear. An extreme (and absurd) example: everyone should have to wear an airbag jacket and that's totally fine because everyone is equally hindered.
If we say that wearing the kneepads successfully increases the safety of the riders, then I agree that we should keep the rule. However, the actually effectiveness of the kneepads is not clear and in my opinion not very good.
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Everyone being equally hindered is the response to the argument that it's restrictive. Indeed it is separate from whether the protection is effective. Airbag jackets? Sounds cool! Everybody should wear one. :-D
I'd like to hear more opinions from various people about the effectiveness of knee protection and how important they think it should be.
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I personally could not imagine to ride without kneepads, because when I ride on the Schlumpf and fall, I sometimes just fall on my knees because I'm too fast to run and in such cases I think they really protect. But this is a matter of opinions and as long as we are allowed to wear them I'm fine with it.
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As I never ride Road races on high speed, I have the luck to never crash hardly beside form one time when I slip away in a curve and hurt my hip harldy. A knee protector wont help here :)
I did some Track racing several years ago and from there I know that bad knee protection dont help, it just provide a faky feeling of beeing safe. A good protector helps a lot but it is very difficult to define a good protector without targeting to 1 or 2 defined types. We discuss that also in Street thread right now. I think the main difference betwen Bike Road racing and Uni Road racing is that you often fall direct on your kneen when you fall from a uni (as Mirjam discribe) while on a bike you usually crash into other riders / go over the handle bar ... So bike riders can only wear a full body Aitbag or nothing while a Uni rider can get protection by a good knee protector. So a Helmet, a protector short and kneepads would be a good security kit while I'm realy not sure if it wouldnt be enough to make a Helemt mandatory and the rest free to use as a rider like. I can imagine that it is not comfortable to wear a knee protection for 10, 42 or 100k. I'm just not sure about kids and if a rule could work that maybe allow to just wear a helmet up from 16 years or something like that.
All over I see in Road races typically injurys that wont be prevented by a knee protector so I think Scott is right that a Helmet will be enough. I would love to get more comments form active riders and what happens to them typically like Mirjams statement.
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Hello,
for me are the young riders the problem. We ( Miriam, Scott and I) have a lot experience. Good and bad one. So we had some uncontroled dismounts.
Scott would deside to ride without kneepads, because he know in a case of a dismount he fall on the side, stomage or head. So he don't need them.
Miriam know that she always fall on her knees. So she wear kneepads.
But young riders don't know how they fall. They have no fall-technic. Sometimes they fall hard and directly on the knees. In these case a kneepad absorb the power.
If you fall straigth in front and you slide over the street like me. Than the kneepad only reduced the abresions. They can't prohibit it completly. That are no hard injuries for me. Only the skin is damaged.
No bones, no muscle, no ribbon! So the competition can go on. But some young riders can't fall safty.
So I'm absolutly not sure what is the right dicision.
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Jan,
What do you think about requiring kneepads for under 16 and then leaving it optional for older riders?
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It's an interesting idea. While I like the idea of treating everybody equally regardless of age, we don't land equally. Even though adults are heavier and can land harder, we are also supposed to be cognitively (or legally) equipped to make those decisions. Like Jan says, kids can be far less prepared for the experience of competing in big races, and may not fall well. Maybe we should protect them more than the adults.
This brings me to consider whether the cut-off should be at the age of adulthood. This varies from country to country though. In the US it's 18. On your 18th birthday you are considered an adult, and responsible for your own actions. Also you are slightly smarter (on average) than when you are 16. If we were to go that way, we could pick a number, or possibly set it as the "age of majority" or "age of adulthood" in the country where the competition is taking place. I would still have helmets for all.
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I agree with John. If there's gonna be a new rule about kneepads I would also make it compulsory for under 18 (in Switzerland and Germany your are also considered as an adult as soon as you are 18).
Keep helmets and also gloves.
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I am also a fan of 18 because often age groups are split here (0-14, 15-18, 20-29, 30+ for example). It would be weird if some people within an age group had differing requirements.
Whether or not age groups should be split at 18 is another discussion and not one to be had here.
Yes to helmets and gloves.
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Now that everyone is getting email notifications, can we get some more opinions here?
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I think the split should be at a definite age group split so as not to create a sense of perceived advantage/disadvantage within particular group.
If 18 is the age group split, that would make sense as it seems to be where adult status is given.
I will always wear them, but that is my personal choice and I'm an adult- I can sign my own waivers.
The only hiccup I could see is if for some reason event insurance would require kneepads. It is highly unlikely though due to the lack of studies on effectiveness of kneepads in road racing.
I agree on the yes to helmets and gloves.
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Also, the rulebook already has an "escape clause" where if something like insurance requires kneepads, then the event is allowed to required kneepads. This is not at all an issue in the rules.
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I don't see why we should make knee pads compulsory for kids and not for adults. I mean, kids fall always under the responsibility of an adult right? So if we let adult riders decide for themselves, the responsible adult for a kid rider could decide whether the kid should wear knee pads or not. I would say: kneepads required for all ages, or no requirement at all.
Having said that, I am of the opinion that kneepads in road racing can help reduce the number and severity of injuries. I have personal experience with it, and I have also seen it with other riders. Perhaps not for all riders indeed: the very seasoned riders know better how to fall, and won't usually fall on their knees - or won't mind as it's only skin. But in order to prevent perceived 'unfair' advantages (perceived or real), I think kneepads should be required. If not required, I strongly think kneepads MUST be allowed - but I think no-one is against that.
If we would decide not to require kneepads for road racing as a general rule, I would leave it as an option in the rules for a host to still require them. Be it for legal or insurance reasons, or perhaps 'culture' of some countries (Germany?). I think we have something similar for helmets in track racing in the current rules.
For helmets and gloves for road racing, I have exactly the same opinion as for kneepads.
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The escape clause that Scott mentions is not covering 'culture' or other 'weak' reaons why a host could want to require kneepads. I would advocate to leave that freedom to a host, and still follow IUF rules.
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Klaas, I totally disagree. What's the point of having the rules if the host can change them? I think the point of the IUF rulebook is to create a standard so that competitions around the world can be comparable. Of course if a host is legally or otherwise obligated, that's why we have an exception clause.
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I agree that "dynamic" safety gear is the worst option for all riders.
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But I'm not making up something new. In the current rulebook there is such a 'soft' exception. Under Track & Field, section 2.3, it reads:
"A Host is allowed to make helmets and/or kneepads mandatory for track races but it must be announced when registration is opened and must appear as a extra point to check for each discipline the competitor registers for."
Note that "legal" or "insurance" are not mentioned. I remember that his exception was insisted on by a few German participants in the Rulebook discussion.
Perhaps this will change in the current Rulebook revision round? I don't know.
By the way, I just now noticed that section 2.3 would need editing anyway because as quoted above it says that it is allowed for a Host to make kneepads mandatory. This is nonsense since in the same section it is stated that kneepads are mandatory anyway for track racing.
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Dynamic safety gear? I believe we're talking about the end part of 2.3 which says:
"A Host is allowed to make helmets and/or kneepads mandatory for track races but it must be announced when registration is opened and must appear as a extra point to check for each discipline the competitor registers for."
I believe the correction needed here is a carryover from when Road and Track racing were covered by the same overview rules. Yes, that bit is redundant. One of the reasons for this clause is that the question came up with a Unicon host in the past, where their riders (an elementary school-based group) had a mandatory helmet rule for everything. We didn't want to eliminate the possibility of good hosts doing events just because they wouldn't do it without having some stricter safety gear requirements.
Back to the original topic, looks like we have a few options we are considering:
1. Leave as-is, with a kneepad requirement
2. Remove kneepad requirement
3. Kneepads required up to a certain age (as helmet laws do in many places)
My opinion (stated earlier but shorter version): Even though Road races are faster on Unlimited unicycles, we are generally not pushing our limits of speed as we are pushing our limits of endurance. We crash less. I don't know if this is similarly true for smaller kids, who are generally on 20" and 24" unicycles. Above I suggested a cut-off at age 18, but this is less about reaching the age of adulthood and more about the question of whether we need more protection for younger riders. Our other traditional age of major transition is 14. So now I will propose a kneepad requirement up to age 14, and optional above that.
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A kneepad requirement cutoff age should not be midway an age group. And we do not know beforehand what the age group boundaries are, if only because age groups can get combined if the rider numbers are too small. Secondly, any age limit for this is arbitrary. I say again: kneepads required for all ages, or kneepads required for no-one.
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In my opinion either everyone or no one should wear kneepads.
And I don't think kneepads are thant annoying while riding. You just have to get used to it and when you always wear them you dont even feel them after a while.
So I belive kneepads should just be required for everyone, this way we set an good example for kids, who do fall more often and dont know how to fall properly.
To sum it up: Kneepads required for all ages!!!
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Sorry to join the discussion late.
My knees are severely scared from multiple crashes. Some of them I was wearing knee pads and it made no difference, other times I was, and it made a great deal of difference. Every crash is different. You never know when they will help or not.
I like the idea of an age requirement and then it's optional for "adults" (age to be determined). I'm with Mirjam, I would wear them without a rule requirement.
The age requirement would be best placed where an age group is split so as not to create two standards for the same group of competing riders. 18 seems ideal, but not always practical. It would be complicated for the hosts (and I admit it's not a great solution), but if the age requirement was a range, it could then 'move' with where the age group is split. This option is not ideal, but perhaps more practical and could be used with greater precision by the hosts.
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I am personally in favor of removing the kneepad requirement.
Let the parents of the young riders decide for their kids and let the adult decide for themselves
In my opinion, protection requirement should only exist in the rulebook to prevent life threatening or important injuries
Kneepads only protect from scratches.
Also, our personal point of view or experience regarding how we face danger or how often we hurt ourselves should not in my opinion be the guidelines of what we enforce to other people. The question here is not: do I need pads? If so, everyone need them. But rather: do rider expose themselves to critical injuries if not wearing them?
Until this committee can prove it, I would let people choose.
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So far I see:
No kneepads: Scott, Benoit
Kneepads for kids (up to age 12,14,16 or 18): Kirsten G, John F, Miriam, Dave K, Jan?
Kneepads for all: Eileen, Klaas
Please correct me if I'm wrong here and add you opinion if you haven't commented yet.
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Oh gosh, not the kneepad thing again. I opposed kneepads at every single rulebook committee...I was outvoted.
Despite that, if we go over the same thing every 2yrs we are wasting time and resources.
The only update I have to my previous position is that I have noticed different unicyclists, even within the same discipline, injure different body parts. I rarely land on my knees, I tend to injure my ankles or arms. My girlfriend, on the other hand, rips her knees just about every ride. I think it should be personal choice in terms of knee protection.
Please...if we put this to a vote again, make it definitive and not bring it up for the next 10yrs.
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"Kneepads for all: Eileen, Klaas".
Not completely correct for me. I'm OK with kneepads for all, but also with no kneepad requirement at all. I do oppose kneepads for younger riders only.
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Sorry Ken, I feel your pain. What are your thoughts about kneepads for Track? One of the old arguments was that if we require them for Track, why don't we require them for Road, where speeds are higher? And yes, we've discussed the responses to that over and over, including above. People who do lots of Road riding don't crash much. And mostly don't wear knee protection (including me). So I'm okay with that.
Where my concern remains is with smaller/younger/less experienced riders, whether in the Unlimited or 24" classes, who are about as likely to crash in a 10k as they are on the track. Or maybe they arent, but the worry is that if something bad does happen, and we end up with the threat of court, will this be used against us? If little Jimmy receives a brain injury, for instance, in the 24" 10k race, why wasn't he required to wear kneepads in that race, when he was in the shorter races? You might ask what that has to do with a brain injury, which means you're paying attention. But it also means you don't follow these types of things much. It has nothing at all to do with it. But if it's a jury trial, that doesn't matter. The IUF wasn't looking out for the welfare of the kid.
That of course carries over to why we don't protect other body parts, The answer to that is that we don't. the discrepancy is on the knee protection. Am I being too cautious? Or have I worked in and around school environments too much? I'm not sure. I do have great respect for Klass and his opinons, so I'm inclined to lean with him. I just don't know if the Netherlands has similar silliness in liability court cases as my country.
As currently written, I believe our rules would allow a host, say if an upcoming Unicon is to be held in the USA, to bow to paranoia and require kneepads for Road racing. If that is the case, I'm good with eliminating the requirement for Road, for everybody.
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"I just don't know if the Netherlands has similar silliness in liability court cases as my country."
Not nearly as much - and this cultural difference may indeed colour my opinion.
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I think this conversation on legal issue is going no where if we based our decision on fear of pursuit rather than on facts and actual laws.
PLEASE READ THIS: http://www.leoisaac.com/law/law011.htm
AND THIS (on the basics of weavers) : http://www.ontcurl.com/Images/up_images/Waivers-A-How-To-Guide.pdf
Based on my experience as a host:
1 - As a host, you are liable for any injuries or death caused by your NEGLIGENCE of:
a) Not providing safe and secure sport facilities.
b) Not providing emergency services or adequate supervision of the athletes on site.
c) Not educating your participants on the inherent risk of your event (waivers are used for that purpose, please read or learn about waivers before commenting or read this as a comparison of two scenario on the subject http://www.westerncanadabusinesslitigationblog.com/commercial/the-enforceability-of-standard-form-waivers-do-i-really-have-to-sign-this/).
2 - A host NEED to acquire a adequate insurance protecting himself, his organization, his employee and his volunteer from:
a) Facilities and material been damage by natural disaster, vandalism, fire, etc. (each insurance policy is different here).
b) Injuries or death caused by his negligence (yes, you can be protected from your negligence, this is why insurance exist).
Site note: a Unicon hosted by a non-profit organization would also protect his board members and organizer from being FINANCIALLY responsible from any lawsuit or bankruptcy.
CONCLUSION
1 - At Unicon 17, only "Monotréal" the local unicycle club was the legal responsible body of the event, not the IUF
2 - Participants of Unicon 17 all signed a waiver releasing the organisation, his partner, etc... from any liability [...].
3 - Monotréal as the host of the event had subscribed to a sport insurance supplied by his sport federation protecting him from any risk.
I'm certainly not an expert on legal stuff, but until the IUF pays a lawyer office to get a clear professional opinion that would say otherwise I don't think this conversation is about legal liability but rather about is not wearing pads exposing riders to critical injuries and if so do we want to protect riders from themselves.
In my opinion, the answer is NO. Pads are not essential protections and we should let riders and parents of the young riders decide for themselves.
B.
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Bit late on this but here are my thoughts. Don't seperate requirements for adults and kids. It makes it hard to enforce (imagine organizers trying to decide at the start of the mass marathon start or 10km who is old enough and if they should has knee pads on) and it just doesn't make sense IMHO. Some young kids are much faster and better than some adults, especially those older people that are just learning and are beginners. I say it's either all for one or none for all (no pun intended).
I'm still in the middle on this and having a hard time deciding which side I'm on. I wear knee pads all the time for road and muni. I'm so used to them that I don't think they hinder me or are uncomfortable. But that's not what this is about. It's about safety not comfort. Yes they do prevent cuts and bruises but not major injuries. In that sense I guess I'm leaning towards making it optional to the rider or parent of a kid. Gloves are very similar in regards to knee pads so if knee pads are optional I would suggest to make gloves optional. The chances of landing on your knees or hands are about the same odds if you ask me.
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Based upon reading the discussions, I'm leaning towards kneepads for all or kneepads for none. The age requirements do become a difficult judging situation- especially at the start of the race when someone may be trying to bend the rule if it is an age requirement. If the age group restriction were in place and a rider were to break the rule by being an underage rider it could open the race up to unnecessary protests by other competitors.
I personally wear kneepads almost all the time and don't find them uncomfortable. I've also crashed and had some soft tissue damage on my knee that prevented me from riding.
I'm still not convinced in going with kneepads for none, but am much more open to the idea based upon Benoit's comments regarding organizing a Unicon.
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In reference to what Dave said above, consider the idea of maybe no kneepads for Unlimited racing but requiring them for 24" racing? On the one hand It sounds backwards, but here's how I see it. For the most part, people racing on unlimited wheels have gone to the effort of bringing them to the competition, which is quite a burden for people who have to fly. These are experienced Road riders. The 24" category is for Track racers to do longer distances. Track unicycles: Track rules? Also, I think most of the youngest riders are in that 24" group.
Devil's advocate: Of course the Unlimited wheels are generally faster, hence one would think a greater level of danger. And yes, worse consequences in a crash. It's hard to reconcile that against requiring kneepads for the smaller, slower wheels.
From my own experience though, if I'm going to race on the track, I will wear kneepads because I am pushing myself closer to my limits of speed, and more likely to dismount. For Road riding, by contrast, I don't wear knee protection. And I ride more Road than any other form of unicycling these days.
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@John- we don't have the injury stats for unicycling, but I don't it's related to experience.
I'll just give my anecdotes again. In high cadence racing- ie std track, it seems like the knees are more vulnerable, whereas unlimited road racing, the greater risk seems to be ankle and knee ligament injuries. In the former, you go down hard and fast with your knees; whereas in lower cadence (ie geared) riding, you tend to step off at high speed and plant limbs in awkward positions.
That has been my experience transitioning from unlimited to standard racing. I land on my knees more often.
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I don't know if Ken is saying he agrees with the idea of kneepads for 24" racing.
Based on his experience, both as a unicyclist and as a physician, I don't doubt his assessment of risks. Though Unlimited isn't only geared riders, and geared riders aren't only on 36" wheels so even some of them are pedaling pretty fast. But on average they are pedaling slower than the 24" racers.