Mandatory protective gear
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
During the trials competition, many riders were bummed out by the mandatory list of protective gear for trials.
HELMET:
I think helmet should be mandatory for trials, that is for sure.
GLOVES:
Gloves and leg protection is another thing. To my knowledge, the proportion of riders wearing gloves outside of trials competition is close to none.
LEG PROTECTION:
The other thing is knee pads and shin pads. As I mentionned in the street discussion, the problem with leg protection is that some rider would rather have just knee pads, some just shin pads while other will prefer the combinaiton of both. Enforcing any kind of leg protection will definitely not suit the all the riders.
We have to keep in mind riders are aware that extreme unicycling is... in fact an extreme sport. We know we can injure ourselves. I believe by not restricting a specific leg protection to trial competition, the major part of the riders would still wear some protective gear. For some line a rider would need maximum protection, while for another line a rider might need maximum comfort and ease of movement.
If the rulebook choose that we have to keep at least some kind of leg protection (but not gloves hopefully), we could make it into as such: "The rider mus be equipped with some kind of leg protection; either knee pads, shin pads or a combination of both, to the choice the of competitor".
Your thoughts?
Comment
From my experience (a bit from riding trial by myself some years ago and much more from observing / judging / take care about injured riders) I would say Helmet and Shinguard should be mandatory!
- Gloves wont protect you from a serious injury, it just prevent you from scratches so it should be depend on the riders choice - priority=very low
- Kneeguards can protect you from a serious injury but in trial this kind of injury is pretty rar - priority=medium
- Shinguards can protect you from a serious injury and in Trial all rider use pin pedals from Metal which can end in a bad injury very easy - priority=high
- Helmets are protecting our Head so they are a must in trials for sure - priority=very high
Comment
So once again,
Helmet, mandatory
Shinpads, ? Once again I would put them recommended nut not mandatory
Kneeguards, definitely not mandatory
Gloves, we don't even need to mention them.
Comment
Current wording for safety gear in Trials:
"All riders must wear appropriate safety gear, such as helmets, shin and knee protection and gloves or wristguards."
The "such as" makes it a little murky, but there's the list. You proposes to remove the knee and glove parts.
I agree that heads are absolutely needed. Everything else is much lower priority. Riders seem to agree that the area that gets the most abuse is shins, so it makes sense to put shin protection at #2. Gloves protect against abrasions (cuts, scrapes) but will not prevent injury. Wristguards can prevent many wrist injuries, but we have never made them a requirement.
If we were to remove only one thing, I think it should be the knee requirement. I'd rather have people keep their hands covered, because splinters can also be a hazard in our hadmade Trials courses.
Comment
I still vote for keeping Helemt and shinguards as I see to many realy realy bad injurys done by the pinned metal pedals. All the rest can be deleted for sure.
Comment
So here a proposal for the proposal:
Old Rule (7.3):
All riders must wear appropriate safety gear, such as helmets, shin and knee protection and gloves or wristguards. Dangerous sections must not be constructed, and in particular, there should be no dangerous objects to land on if a rider falls off a high object. Artificial sections should be constructed so that they do not collapse or fall over under normal riding conditions.
New Rule (7.3):
For all riders its mandatory to wear helmet and shin protection. Knee protection and gloves are recomended. Dangerous sections must not be constructed, and in particular, there should be no dangerous objects to land on if a rider falls off a high object. Artificial sections should be constructed so that they do not collapse or fall over under normal riding conditions.
Comment
I vote for Olaf's new version of 7.3
On a larger view, I would also agree with anyone who believes maybe we should move the safety gear rules to Section 1, so people can find them all in one place. Having all the events with their required (and/or recommended) gear together should make it easier for riders to prepare, and not be caught unprepared on event day. 7.3 can then focus on safety in the course design and build. The various other sections of the Rulebook would reference back to Section 1 for safety gear rules.
Comment
John,
That sounds like a good discussion to have in the main committee. Start it there if you want.
Comment
Shouldn't the main committee be following the discussions in the sub committees rather than the opposite? By moving a discussion like this one you're remove the power of speech of the members of the sub-committee as we can't discuss about posts in the main committee.
Comment
The idea of having it in the main committee is to consolidate these rules where they are similar. We probably only need two or three different sets of safety gear for all competitions. Rather than having two events with slightly different requirements, it would be easier on riders (and officials trying to enforce) to make them the same. But for the hashing out of what each separate discipline should have, maybe that should stay in these committees before then moving to the Main to be compared together.
Comment
Scott just mean the discussion if there should be one big rule about safty gear in chapter one or one small chapter per discipline. This would bbe in deed a general discussion for the main committee while I would never vote for that. At least we add the safty gear part last time to every chapter to have it where it should be. I cant imagine that a Flat or Trial Rider will start reading chapter 1 if he even never read the trial or Flat/Street chapter. So let us keep it as it is and have a clear definition per chapter/discipline what safty gear is needed. To see that still riders start at a world championship competition without the required safty gear is strange enough. We already have done this:
1.3.1 Safety Equipment
You will find the detailed rules about safety equipment in each chapter as point x.3 (2.3, 3.3, 4.3 etc.). Hosts may only deviate from these rules for safety equipment if this is inevitable. The status of “inevitable” has to be documented and must be approved by the IUF executive board. Any deviation from the IUF safety equipment requirements must be approved and announced at least two months before the event.
So right now it is nearly impossible to miss the information about safty gear if you start readinbg the rules, the only way to miss it is to simply ignore the rules.
But Johns comment lead me to the Idea to split 7.3 as it is the only subchapter about safty gear that also contains information about a safty course. So maybe it could be better:
New Rule (7.3):
7.3 Safty Gear:
For all riders its mandatory to wear helmet and shin protection. Knee protection and gloves are recomended.
7.3.1 Additional safty rules:
Dangerous sections must not be constructed, and in particular, there should be no dangerous objects to land on if a rider falls off a high object. Artificial sections should be constructed so that they do not collapse or fall over under normal riding conditions. If an Observer or the Event Director feels that safety is compromised by a rider attempting a section that is beyond his/her ability, they may prohibit the rider from attempting that obstacle. In cases where a fall from an obstacle could be particularly dangerous, the Event Director may also permit attempts only by highly skilled riders who believe they will qualify for the Finals.
I just see that I miss to copy 50% of the additional safty rules last time :) Now its complete.
Comment
The Idea is good John but be sure that if it is only in chapter one, you will find even more riders at the competitions without the required safty gear :) Especialy Trial/Street/Flat/Muni riders dont read the rules and they usually also dont have a trainer that do it for them and force them to bring their stuff with them. Maybe it can be good to crosscheck all X.3 cpaters and add to 1.3.1 the list of safty gear that will make iot possible to join evry event.
Comment
I think the way have altered the rule sounds pretty good.
I do think that leg protection should be mandatory. But I think changing it to riders preference covers all the important bases.
Side note. Once we have decided on an official rule change for protection, we should make a small video addressing the rules and how they have been changed. So riders know what to expect come next unicon.
Comment
Great idea Phil.
Comment
I'm on the fence with requiring leg protection -- riders can easily get around the rule by just wrapping their legs with bandages. I would marginally prefer not requiring any leg protection but heavily recommending it and letting riders chose what they are comfortable wearing. However, I'm fine with either decision, so if the majority is in favor with the shinguards-only rule, that's okay with me. I like that we're ditching the required knee guards, and I'm 100% in support of helmets being required.
I love the video idea, especially if it's posted on the unicon site and easy to find. Perhaps Emile would let us stick a 10-second clip into Unicycle News and Stuff?
Lastly, this is completely unnecessary, but can I edit the rules for grammar/flow before we finalize them? I've been editing papers too long not to do so. :P
Comment
personally i don't believe any safety gear should be required, it should be a personal choice. i would recommend it but not require it. that said i assume that the insurance company on the other hand would require certain safety gear so that they would cover us. therefore we should require the bare minimum the insurance requires to cover us.
if people feel they they need to wear something they will, we don't require people to wear socks but you don't see any sockless competitors. and if you are worried about kids i'm pretty sure they have parents or legal guardians whose job it is to make sure they don't do stupid stuff like unicycling sans helmet.
Comment
A video can be nice and helpfull but if a video show changes in the rules, it only helps if you already know the old rules. As long as people travel soem thounds of kilometer to a competition without reading the rules, I gues even a video wont help them :)
@msiegel2: "we don't require people to wear socks but you don't see any sockless competitors" you will find some for sure;) We already require shoes as before riders appear without shoes.
"that said i assume that the insurance company on the other hand would require certain safety gear so that they would cover us. therefore we should require the bare minimum the insurance requires to cover us."
The situation about insurence and law cases are very very very different in every country while the rules should cover all events. I prefer to have a reliable rule about safty gear that is consitent then to be forced to figure out per event what safty gear they require. Also if you start asking an insurance company what safty gear they would like to see, guess what they will answer ...
So the best way is to delete safty gear that is not neccesary and keep the stuff that can help to prevent a rider from an injury even if the rider love to get pain and be injured. If we lower to much the protection af a host, they will start to add safty gear in always different configuration to be on the safe side.
Comment
I think is reasonable to requiring rider preferred leg protection for trials is a good idea.
Olaf, I don't think the video would address what rules we have changed. Rather it would inform riders of what type of protection is required for which events (street,trials,flat). While still encouraging riders to wear protection.
Comment
"The Idea is good John but be sure that if it is only in chapter one, you will find even more riders at the competitions without the required safty gear :) Especialy Trial/Street/Flat/Muni riders dont read the rules and they usually also dont have a trainer that do it for them and force them to bring their stuff with them." -- Good point. Maybe the way to work it would be to have a shorthand version of the safety gear requirements in each section, pointing to the much more detailed description in Section 1. In there they would find all the definitions; what is a kneepad or not a kneepad, etc.
Meanwhile, when it comes to informing riders of what they need to actually bring with them, this is best communicated in multiple places. On a registration form, in a program book, and perhaps most usefully in the event schedule, which is where riders plan their day. Don't forget the Helmets for this afternoon! The schedule is probably the most meaningful place to put that information for people already at a convention.
"I do think that leg protection should be mandatory. But I think changing it to riders preference covers all the important bases." -- I agree with that. Shins, knees or (of course) both. With definitions of the meaning of each.
"I'm on the fence with requiring leg protection -- riders can easily get around the rule by just wrapping their legs with bandages." -- Actually we've already been through that, in the early days of safety gear reqirements (1989 for Unicycling Society of America). We didn't have a definition, so some people mocked the rule by wearing Band-Aids. Now we know to have definitions of the requirements, which can be hard to formulate. So we also allow the on-site officials to have the last word if someone's safety gear is questionable on whether it meets the definitions. This is an existing rule.
"Lastly, this is completely unnecessary, but can I edit the rules for grammar/flow before we finalize them? I've been editing papers too long not to do so." -- Absolutely I hope we can do this! This document has been created over the years (back to the 1980s) by amateur editors, non-native English speakers and just people with various styles of writing. That sort of help is welcome!
"personally i don't believe any safety gear should be required, it should be a personal choice." -- This would be fine in a world without insurance and lawsuits. Remember, folks, we are also protecting the IUF, the the unpaid individuals in charge of the IUF, and the un/under-paid people who put together our wonderful competitions. Riders don't have to like wearing safety gear. When someone else is providing the competition event for you, they might feel it necessary to require some of it anyway.
Insurance companies don't require safety gear. At least not for unicycling, which insurance companies know all to little about. They just charge us a lot and hope we're not being stupid. No, that's not accurate. Insurance companies don't hope anything, they calculate. They are not interested in keeping riders from being injured, they are interested in protecting hosts from lawsuits that would bankrupt them.
"if you are worried about kids i'm pretty sure they have parents or legal guardians whose job it is to make sure they don't do stupid stuff like unicycling sans helmet." -- If we could trust parents to always make the right choices (or even know which choices are right) the world would be a simpler place. Parents should do their best to protect their children, and the IUF must do its best to protect itself and competition hosts.
"A video can be nice and helpfull but if a video show changes in the rules, it only helps if you already know the old rules." -- I think any video is better than no video. Assuming it is accurate. Not everyone may watch it, but it can not only show the basics, it can go into more detail with visual examples of what kinds of helmets, kneepads, gloves, etc. are expected, with other examples of ones that won't be accepted.
Comment
In addition to the insurance/legalities, not requiring helmets is an easy way for a competitor to die during a competition. The obstacles in the trials finals are often 7 to 8 feet tall, sometimes taller, with sharp edges and not-always-stable bases. Yes, these are the best riders in the world, but people make mistakes, especially when trying to push their limits to the very edge. I, for one, never ever EVER want to be standing over a trials competitor with their head cracked open and bleeding on the concrete while the crowd yells at us that we should have made them wear a helmet. I would rather we never have a Unicon known as "the one where that one kid died". So, yeah, I would personally like helmets to be required.
Comment
While not everyone agrees with you, Jenni, about helmets, I think enough of us do that it's not an issue. And the people who seem to get some of the worst injuries are not the elite riders, but the up-and-coming, who are still learning their limitations or pushing them too hard.
Sometimes very experienced riders can also get bad hurts. At Unicon 12 (Japan), Lars Lottrup had a very scary fall during the Trials comp, which had him whisked away by ambulance, and a long suspension of the competition until he was taken care of. He landed with his mouth on the edge of an obstacle, while his body came down in front of it. Nobody knew, at first, if he had a neck injury, spinal injury or a really bad face injury. Fortunately it was mostly cosmetic, and he was okay. But it was quite scary. Unfortunately we don't have any kind of equipment that would prevent the same injury on any Trials obstacles of yesterday or today.
Comment
one of the issues, that others have mentioned, is the fact that there is no safety gear made specifically for unicycling. so riders use whatever safety gear they want. this makes it that they may meet the mandatory requirement but are not safe i.e. i saw a guy using legwarmer as knee pads, they would not protect him if he fell but they counted enough that he was able to compete. or even if it will protect them it is designed for another purpose so it is not the best safety gear for unicycling. obviously safety gear will not be made specifically for unicycling until it will be profitable (more unicyclists) and even then rides will try getting away with the bare minimum. also even if a rider has all the safety gear one could fit on their body they still could get hurt. no one wants to get hurt and no one wants to see others get hurt. therefore i believe that safety gear will required, not to protect the riders but the organizers from lawsuits. that said we should look at what injuries different safety gear protects from and how bad (the cost of)the injuries are. helmets: head injuries: expensive. shinguards: legs: hurts a lot but relatively cheap.
Comment
"i saw a guy using legwarmer as knee pads, they would not protect him if he fell but they counted enough that he was able to compete." -- Actually they did not count enough and he should not have been allowed to compete. Failure by officials.
All of you are hopefully making reference to the actual Rulebook when discussing these things. But the Rulebook is not always the best at putting information where people are looking for it:
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7.3 Safety Gear
All riders must wear appropriate safety gear, such as helmets, shin and knee protection and gloves or wristguards.
----
Thats also a Rulebook failure (as well as an officials/training falure). Section 7.3 does not make reference to the *definitions* of those things, which are found in Section 1d. The Track & Field section, which is older, has what's missing from the Trials (and possibly other) section:
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2.3 Safety Gear
Riders must wear shoes, kneepads and gloves (definitions in chapter 1d).
----
Here's our current definition for kneepads. This definition was arrived at after much long, detailed discussion and disagreement as to what was enough, what was too much, what was too specific (for people to find in various countries), etc.:
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Kneepads: (For racing) Any commercially made, thick version is acceptable, such as those used for basketball and volleyball, or any with hard plastic caps. Kneepads must cover the entire knee and stay on during racing. Long pants, ace bandages, patches on knees, and Band-Aids are not acceptable.
----
Based on past experience, we have listed some of the things people *may not* use for kneepads. Leg warmers would fit on that list. :-)
So what we need to do is refer to the definitions whenever "defined" items are mentioned in the other sections of the rules.
Comment
So I think we all pretty much want the same thing. helmets are required. Gloves are optional? Riders must wear rider preferred leg protection. which is defined as knee pads or shin pads or better.
Should we start putting this into proper rule language and start writing definitions? Does this sound like the good direction?
Comment
Msiegle2 (whoever you are), you should check out Kris Holm products; they have knee/shin pads for unicyclists.
As for rewriting the new rule, I though high jump and long jump were not part of track and field anymore? Or am I mistaken? In both case we need to change article 2.3 as well. Depending on if high jump and long jump. I think high jump should be moved to trials category.
Current 7.3:
"7.3 Safety Gear
All riders must wear appropriate safety gear, such as helmets, shin and knee protection
and gloves or wrist guards" [the rest is unchanged]
NEW
"7.3 Safety Gear
All riders must wear appropriate safety gear; helmets and shinguard are required. While gloves and knee pads are not mandatory, they are strongly re commanded. Dangerous sections must not be constructed, and in particular" [the rest is unchanged]]
Comment
"7.3 Safty Gear:
For all riders its mandatory to wear helmet and shin protection. Knee protection and gloves are recommended"
Was that version to short or just unclear English? I always think as shorter as better :)
About jumps as separate chapter a proposal already exist. But this discussion is about trials only.
Comment
Even shorter ;)
"7.3 Safety Gear:
All riders must wear helmet and shin protection. Gloves and knee protection are recommended."
Comment
That sounds good to me.
Do we also need to write a definition for shin protection or does that already exist?
Comment
This will happen in chapter 1 as general description of safety gear. So we just has to refer to this but this can be done to all safety gear rules later once the part in chapter 1 is written.
@emile: can you move it then to a proposal? I guess it is what everybody want.
Comment
This would be the 1D section of the rulebook. There is a current definition of kneepad, but not shinpad.
Current: Kneepads: (For racing) Any commercially made, thick version is acceptable, such as
those used for basketball and volleyball, or any with hard plastic caps. Kneepads must cover the entire knee and stay on during racing. Long pants, ace bandages, patches on
knees, and Band-Aids are not acceptable.
New:
"Kneepads: Any commercially made, thick version is acceptable, such as
those used for basketball and volleyball, or any with hard plastic caps. Kneepads must cover the entire knee and stay on during the whole length of the competition. Long pants, bandages or patches are not acceptable"
"Shinpads: Any commercially made, thick version is acceptable, such as those used for football or bicycling, or any with hard plastic shell. Shinpads must stay on during the length of the competition. Long pants, bandages or patches are not acceptable."
Comment
Sounds like a good definition for it, thanks