Platform highjump
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
We need to create a set of rules for platform high jump. A lot of the text can be copied from the other jumps, however there are some unique criteria needed here.
A few discussion points:
- When is the jump completed? How does the rider show that they are in control at the top?
- How do we increment the height? By pallets only? By pallets until we get to the top 5 or 10 riders? One thing to note is that pallets are standard in Europe, but elsewhere in the world it's different. Also, the height of a EUR-pallet is 14.4cm which is weird.
- How do we design the setup so that it's easy to change the height but also stable enough. I think that the design of the platform (how stiff it is) really makes a difference for how high riders can jump.
Comment
My idea for a completed jump:
The rider completes the jump and looks in control at the top, the judge counts really loud ONE, TWO, THREE, SAFE or something like this. It's a bit like a wrestling match. I feel like if a rider sucessful makes it to the top, then they should be able to stay there in control for 30 seconds easily.
Comment
We don't have to use pallets, but they are an good reference for riders and are easy to get hands on. Pallets used at Unicon were EURO standar pallets too ;) They are strong, and if we use pallets, we should use this.
My concern with pallets is the height increment and the landing zone being very small.
Comment
I think part of the challenge of the platform jump is the size of the landing zone. When I think about the size of a platform, a pallet is exactly what comes to mind for me.
Comment
1. I don't like the name Platform High Jump. It is not obvious to me what it means, and I'm deeply involved in the history of this stuff. I'm not sure what's a better name; "Up Jump" comes to mind, where the attention is on the up, without so much on surviving the landing (or clearing of the bar). Please recommend alternate (better) names. Example of a really bad name: NAUCC. :-)
2. As a competition it must also define what's allowed. Pedal/crank grabs or no? Or two different variations? For starters I think straight to rubber.
3. For jump completion, what's wrong with the old 3-second rule? In Sumo, and earlier iterations of High and Long jump, 3-seconds always seemed to work fine. I think one of the arguments against it was that it was subjective. Not if you use actual seconds! With a group as anal as we unicyclists can be, all you need is someone to hit the stopwatch when the person lands, and only stop it if they touch the ground before the 3 seconds are elapsed. Easy.
4. For increment, we risk forcing organizers to make lots of "parts" if we choose a size that's not common in that country. I submit that increments don't really matter until you are nearing the rider's limit. In other words, any type of pallete-like increment is probably okay, but toward the end you probably need to bring in something thinner, at a given # of centimeters thickness. This would require a lot less custom building. Possibly they would come in 2 or more thicknesses, a coarse and a fine one. Like 3 cm and 1cm, for example.
5. No good suggestions on the stability part. When you get to the thinner additions at the top, perhaps they can be anchored by clamps to the left and right of where the rider is jumping up. But of course this would have to be on top of a solid, stable base. Also in agreement with Emile and Scott in that we should probably standardize on a minimum dimension for the platform/landing zone.
Comment
Usually the plates to go higher in 1cm steps at the end are placed below the last pallet to fix them. For sure the stack should be fixed always in a reliable way. To define a minimum size is also great, the 120x80cm from Europallets are for sure a very common size. To use the 3 second rule sounds also good for me. Pedal / Crankgrabs shouldnt be allowed as it is a jump discipline so it should be about tire from Bottom to Plattform, nothing else. Static and rolling hop should be allowed so it needs a area from 10 meter or more for riders to start.
Comment
I think that 3 seconds is way too short. If you are jumping 140cm, it's quite easy to have the tire touch the top (and start the clock), not really be ballanced, and then fall to the ground in more than 3 seconds. I still think that if a rider lands the jump, it should be absolutely no problem to stay up there for 10, 15, or even 30 seconds.
Comment
And I believe when you push yourslef to your maximum you might have to do some nasty recovery hop and a pallet is a very small surface. Could be part of the game though.
Comment
True that if the landing zone is of a specified (minimum) size, it must be part of the game to be able to land and get recovered within that space. So the chosen minimum size must keep that in mind.
For Sumo and Long Jump, 3 seconds is usually plenty of time to establish control. The intent is to establish the the rider has "stuck" the landing, within a reasonable doubt, but we don't want to require an overly long time either, as that can get boring and also could become a secondary challenge to riders. Get up there, prove you've landed and are still in control of the uni, and done. How about 5 seconds? Whatever time is chosen, I highly recommend it be the same time used for all similar events.
Comment
Something between 3 and 5 seconds should be fine as long as the time not start once the tire touch the pallet. It should start once the rider finish the landing and start normal uni control. Another point is that it happens also that a rider jump up, land it clean and then imediatly drop down to the floor and stay ther in full control. Will this be also a clean jump as the hight was managed and the jump was finished also clean at least, just on the bottom (behind the plattform). You can see this also in highjump soem time when a rider do a second hop to enter a safe position or in FLat after landing a trick. As a pallet is small you can safe yourself on it or with that drop down (as long as it happens not backwards to the place where you start). Maybe it is good to search for some videos that show typical jumps / landings.
About the name, I just get "Street Jump" in mind. It contains not directly what it is but it sounds better for me then Plattform High Jump as this type is more what happens on the street while the "classic" high jump is done like in classic athletics.
Comment
"It should start once the rider finish the landing and start normal uni control." I'm not sure what that means. We would have to make a very clear definition for such things.
In the case of a rider making the jump, but then immediately dropping back down, my inclination is that this was not a completed jump. The rider made it to the platform, but with center of mass not above the platform and was unable to stay up there. Again, hence a 3-5 second "test" of control in the finish position. This would depend on what our intent is for this type of competition. Since we already have the "jumping over a bar" competition, this one should be about making it on top of the platform.
I like the name Street Jump better than Platform Jump, but neither is clear on what the event is. Up Jump is only slightly better because what goes up, must come down. Of course you jump UP! What about Perch Jump, or Jump to Platform? Not exciting names, but I think they should be descriptive.
Comment
"It should start once the rider finish the landing and start normal uni control."
This is basically what I was suggesting from the start. If we start the 3 or 5 seconds from the instance that the tire touches the pallet, its quite possible to complete the time without really being in control. (Also in rebuttle to John's comment, 3 seconds is no longer really enough for long jump at the speeds that riders are going at.) Basically once the rider jumps, reaches the top, and looks "in control", the judge counts "One, Two, Three, Safe!" and then the jump is considered complete. Obviously "in control" is relatively undefined but it's also fairly clear visually. I don't think the rider should be able to jump down again (until the jump is complete).
Like Emile said: "pallet is a very small surface. Could be part of the game though." I think we need to have both a minimum size and a maximum size for the platform. If one competition has a really large platform and another one is small, then that is not a fair comparison.
Naming: I think High Jump to Platform is the most clear and professional name. We have to consider what the name means to the public and not just unicyclists. "Street Jump" is very confusing for non-unicyclists while "High Jump to Platform" is really clear. Perhaps we need to rename the other discipline to "High Jump over Bar" to make it clear. I personally think "Up Jump" sounds like a name that a 8-year-old would use and I can't ever see Red Bull refering to something like that. If we want to support the development of unicycling in the media, we need to design our competitions with that in mind.
Comment
How about 4 seconds? Usually it's pretty rare to not be able to get into control within that amount of time. The idea being to have a time that's not too long but that we establish as enough to "validate" the landing. Even if the rider is still hopping all over the place after 4 seconds, for example, the fact that she's still on the unicycle is our standard of proof of "survival" of the landing.
BTW, using "one, two three, safe!" is a 4-count. To be consistent it should be based on actual seconds, but if that type of count works, maybe 4 seconds will work?
I think there should be a minimum size and a maximum size. For Freestyle (sorry, thread jack!). No, I'm not concerned about a maximum. The minimum is the important number; if a rider got comfortable with a larger landing zone from an earlier competition, or from their own practice apparatus, they weren't preparing for the current competition conditions. There would be nothing unfair about it. That said, a minimum is only a minimum. the actual platform can be as large beyond that as the builder wants.
I like High Jump to Platform better than all the others so far. Also I'm glad you agree that we need to think about the media when we label these things. What are you going to call that big convention next summer? Oh. :-P (Great postcard! I got it with my UDC order yesterday. Remind me to tell you the story about original unicycle art by the guy that created that drawing style). Anyway, the only downside of your currently-best name idea is that it's a little long. I suggest that we can safely remove the "High" without taking away the meaning. Jump to Platform!
DO NOT change the name of the High Jump. Everybody knows what a High Jump is, which is why we jump over a bar in that event. And I remind people that the Track & Field High Jumpers do it the easy way, landing on their backs.
Comment
"No, I'm not concerned about a maximum... There would be nothing unfair about it."
What about for World Records? Can you agree that a bigger platform could make the landing easier? If so, then we need consintancy for WR sake.
Comment
For WR, I would make the minimum size sufficient to cover both competition and record-setting.
Comment
John,
I'm talking about the maximum size not the minimum. Also, why should Unicon/IUF rules be different from WR rules? I think that's pretty dumb.
Comment
I'm not sure we are understanding each other. If you minimum size is sufficiently big enough to run a good competition, why worry about a maximum? I don't see a problem in a host making a platform that's too big. All you should need is a minimum that's got the space everybody should need.
And WR rules shouldn't be different from IUF rules, agreed. Sometimes they have to be picky, but at least at the "large competition" level, IUF rules should be the same kind of picky.
Comment
"Anyway, the only downside of your currently-best name idea is that it's a little long. I suggest that we can safely remove the "High" without taking away the meaning. Jump to Platform!"
Jump to platform is unclear. This could be a gap, like a long jump but to a platform. I think Scott had it good with the "High Jump Platform". When talking about high jump riders tend to use the words "to rubber", "to tire" or "pallet" a lot. Maybe we could use some of that.
"It should start once the rider finish the landing and start normal uni control."
Olaf is trying to say when the rider gets up from his tuck position. I think that would be an unfair way of counting as some people will stay tuck longer and some others will untuck straight away. A longer time, like 5 seconds, right when the tire hit the top of the platform would fix this problem.
Another thing to consider is if a rider jumps up the platform, then down the platform, it should still count (if he clears the set time to be in control) as long as he doesn't jump back from where he started.
I've made this in point to illustrate what I'm trying to say: http://i.imgur.com/PX7Cmiu.jpg
Red zone = is no good if you jump there
Green zone = good if you jump there before the end of the "5" seconds
Comment
Naming:
Jump to Platform is sufficient, in my mind, to explain the event. While one might think it's a horizontal jump, that's kind of silly (or not silly, for a different event which should have "Gap" in the name). It fits better with High Jump and Long Jump, which are well-known, traditional Track & Field events.
I'm fine with 5 seconds to determine control. In most cases it's probably more than necessary, but sometimes it might be just enough.
I don't agree with the green vs. red zones you illustrated. The green zone should be the top of the platform only. If the rider jumps down *after* the 5 seconds is completed, then it doesn't matter because the jump was valid. But jumping down within the time limit might happen because of lack of control up there, making it necessary to go off the edge of the platform to keep from falling.
Comment
I think Émile's idea behind having the green zone extending beyond the platform is that when jumping in a "natural" environment, it doesn't matter if you stay perfectly on top of the ledge or if you go further, as long as you have succeeded with the jump. Of course, the way I understand it, is that you would still have to stay in control of your unicycle inside the green zone for the 5 seconds. So if you drop down the platform in the green zone after 2 seconds because you "over-jumped", you would need to wait 3 more seconds on the ground before dismounting.
Comment
This is the old discussion in that discipline :) Should a drop down after manage the plattform count or not? If I use Scotts name system (Highjump over the bar and Highjump to plattform), which is a good system I think, it sounds for me that you have to land on the plattform and stay there. This would also need a minimum and maximum size as Scott recomend. To drop down after landing is often the use of a second chance to manage the jump.
So my suggestion would be to count only a jump that is landed on the plattform and the rider has to manage 5 seconds after the tire has reach the plattform whithout touching the plattfrom wirth any part of his body and any part of the unicycle expecting the tire. The typical and maximum size should be 120x160 cm (2 Euro Pallets), the minimum size could be 80x120 maybe. Please suggest other typical measurements that can be easy build form pallets. I would also suggest that a stable plate from wood should always cover the top. This wooden board would it also make possible to define a fixed size from maybe 100x100cm, independet from the pallets size. This woud make it more easy to have simmilar conditions all over the world. The judges have then to observe if the rider stay on the board after landing the jump.
Beside this I a safty ring arround the plattform should be defined to give the rider room to drop down in case he must and to protect the audience. This can be 3 or 5 meter arround the pallet stack. FInaly there must be defined minimum space to start the jump as some do rolling hop it woill need 10 or 15 meter for sure.
Comment
I agree with everything Olaf said :)
Comment
I'm in with Olaf and Scott.
Just allow photographers to lurk in the Safety Ring. :-)
Comment
Can maybe some of the native english speakers put a basic set of rules together based on this discussion? I can also do it but then one of you have to fix it :)
Comment
Unless someone else really wants to do this, I can. It would be easier for me to write the rules than to correct Olaf's English :)
Comment
Sorry, I'm late to this discussion and am still catching up. Scott, I can help re-write the rules, but I don't really know what they should sound like because I've never read the rules (And yet...I'm on the committee. Huh.). Also, I wouldn't be able to get to this until tomorrow (sorry). Let me know (facebook, email, text) how you want me to help.
Comment
You can use the existing Highjump rules to have an idea what they should contain and then clean them as much as possible and add the needed changes from "over the bar" to "on plattform". Here they are:
2.19.1 High Jump
The rider and unicycle jump over a bar, without knocking it down, and ride away without a dismount. There are three parts to a successful jump:
1. Riders must mount before the start line, to show they are on the unicycle and in control. The attempt starts when the rider crosses the start line. The rider may break off from a jumping attempt before leaving the ground, but must then start again from behind the start line. That attempt then doesn’t count.
2. Riders must jump over the bar without knocking the bar off the apparatus. The bar can be hit as long as it does not fall. If the bar falls before the rider crosses the finish line, it counts as an unsuccessful attempt.
3. After landing, the rider must stay in control of the unicycle until he cross the finish line without dismounting, touching a hand to the ground or any other object, or knocking down the bar or any of the high jump apparatus. Riders get two attempts at each height. The rider starts at a low height and after each successful attempt, the height increases at set intervals until the rider fails to be successful on both attempts. When the rider fails both attempts, the maximum height that was completed is recorded.
2.19.1.1 Unicycles
Standard unicycles must be used (see definition in chapter 1d). No restriction on wheel or crank size. Metal pedals are allowed for their strength and better grip. This may make it impossible to hold this event on a sensitive track surface.
2.19.1.2 Setup
Around the High Jump apparatus a circle with a radius of 3 meters must be marked. This circle is start and finish line. The rider can cross it wherever he wants. Riders must ride or hop across the finish line for the attempt to count. Successfully crossing the finish line is judged the same as in racing (see section 2.6). The bar must be held loosely in the jumping apparatus so it can fall or break away if the rider does not complete the desired height. Magnetic systems are not allowed. The bar shall have a minimum diameter of 2cm.
2.19.1.3 Broken Unicycle
If the unicycle breaks during an attempt, a new attempt must be given to the rider.
Comment
Olaf offers the most sensible starting point for the Platform Jump version. In fact, they will probably be similar enough that perhaps they can share the same rules, and only have separate sections for the parts where they differ.
If Platform Jump sounds boring, I'm still open to other ideas. Like Ledge Jump, or maybe just Ledge? Sounds a little more interesting, and "mountainish".
Comment
I thought it would make things more easy for Jenni to have at least an Idea how it should be and as you say, in best case she create a set that work for both highjumps with just one different sub chapter. Lets see.
Comment
Thanks Olaf! That was exactly what I needed. I've drafted up a set of rules for "Platform High Jump" (I like this name, so I used it :P). I had originally intended to include the original rules with a strikethrough for comparison, but this web interface apparently doesn't allow me to copy-paste, so I'm grudgingly re-typing the draft of the new rules.
2.19.1 Platform High Jump
The rider and unicycle jump up to a landing surface on a platform (see 2.19.1.2 for definitions) and remain on the landing surface for a 5-second count from a judge. Riders have two attempts for each height. The rider begins at a low height, and after each successful attempt, the height increases at set intervals until the rider fails on both attempts. When the rider fails both attempts, the maximum height that was completed is recorded.
There are three parts to a successful jump:
1. Riders must mount their unicycles on the ground. A jump attempt occurs when any part of the unicycle or rider touches any part of the platform or landing surface. The rider may break off from a jump attempt before touching the platform of landing surface, but must remount on the ground. This does not qualify as a jump attempt.
2. Riders must jump to the landing surface such that a) no part of the rider's body or the unicycle touches the platform, and b) only the unicycle tire touches the landing surface.
3. After landing, the rider's tire must remain on the landing surface for 5 seconds, as counted by a judge. During the 5 seconds, the rider cannot: a) touch any part of the platform or landing surface with their body, b) touch the landing surface with any part of the unicycle except for the tire. Once the judge has finished the 5-second count, the rider may return to the ground in any fashion s/he chooses.
If a rider completes all of the requirements listed in Items 1 through 3 above, the jump is deemed successful. Otherwise, it is deemed a failed jump attempt.
2.19.1.1 Unicycles
Standard unicycles must be used (see definition in chapter 1d). There is no restriction on wheel or crank size, and metal pedals are allowed.
2.19.1.2 Setup
The structure consists of two parts: a platform and a landing surface. The top surface of the platform must be at least 80 x 120 cm in size, but no larger than 120 x 160 cm. The sides of the platform must be nearly perpendicular with the ground to ensure its present does not hamper riders. The landing surface consists of a flat piece of wood of dimension 100 x 100 cm that is firmly affixed to the top of the platform. The method of attachment must be chosen so that it does not interfere with riders during jump attempts. The structure should be sturdily built and shimmed so that there is minimal motion when jumps are attempted.
A 3-m safety ring must be marked out around all sides of the platform where no persons may enter during a jump attempt. Organizers may choose to mark out a 4-m ring where only select persons may enter during a jump attempt (i.e., photographers or judges). A 15-m runway must also be cleared of persons for riders that will roll into the jump.
2.19.1.3 Broken Unicycle
If any part of the unicycle breaks during an attempt, a new attempt must be given to the rider.
Comment
Crap, I just realized that Item 3 makes it sound like the riders must still-stand for the 5-second count. Here is a revised version:
3. After landing, the rider must remain on the landing surface for 5 seconds, as counted by a judge. During the 5 seconds, the rider cannot: a) touch any part of the platform or landing surface with their body, or b) touch the landing surface with any part of the unicycle except for the tire. The tire may briefly leave the landing surface during the 5-second count, but it must reconnect with the landing surface at the end of the count. Once the judge has counted 5 seconds, the rider may return to the ground in any fashion s/he chooses.
Comment
Many thanks Jenni, sounds good for me. Also the change was important to make clear that you can idle or hop arround. I will wait now for some comments and if everyone agree I can move it to the proposals to start soon the voting process.
While reading the rule I remeber an Idea from Scott about limiting the all over number of attemps in qualification to limit the endless time a jump contest typically need. maybe we can embed this already here to make no new rule without it or we place that into a propsal where we move JUMPS out of track race into its own chapter and generalize the limit to all 3 jump disciplines.
Comment
I created a proposal in the main committee to split out jumps from the track chapter. I hope this happens quickly.
Comment
I hope too, Scott.
I think platform high jump should have the same sefety gear requirements as high jump. What do you guys think?
Here is the link to the safety gear rule discussion for high jump:
http://rulebook.unicycling.org/r/iuf-2014/discussions/15
Here is the link to the safety gear proposal:
http://rulebook.unicycling.org/r/iuf-2014/proposals/3
Comment
Yes to safety gear being the same for all jumping events (and Street and Trials would be nice as well).
Jumps really don't fit in the Track section. I always wanted them to be the "field" in Track and Field but it's different equipment and a lot of different enthusiasts doing it. Our field events must be Slalom, Slow and other events that use Track unicycles, excluding Road racing.
Here are a couple of edit suggestions for Jenni's good work:
- - The first part start with a brief description of the event, but it can be more conversational; leave the technical bits for the details below. I recommend changing the first sentence to something like this: "The object is to jump from the ground to a platform, with no pedal or crank grabs. Riders must remain in control of the unicycle (stay mounted) for 5 seconds after landing."
- In #1, I think there an "of" that should be "or".
- In #2 I think it's okay to say "to rubber", which most jumpers will understand: "2. Riders must jump "to rubber" on the landing surface. No part of the rider, or any part of the unicycle other than the tire, may touch the platform or landing surface."
- The revised #3 is a little awkward; how about this: "3. After landing, the rider must remain mounted and on the landing surface for 5 seconds, as counted by a judge. The rider may do any form of idling, hopping or stillstanding during the 5 seconds." -- The part about what may touch the platform is covered in #2.
- On the structure, I would go a little further and say that the "face" of the structure must be vertical, or otherwise with no protrusions below the edge of the landing surface. An elegant design for such a platform would actually be intented, with only the top part extending out so there is nothing else in the way until the rider reaches the top.
- Materials need not be specified. If somebody wants to make a nice landing surface out of metal, stone or lexan, those should not be a problem (long as they aren't slippery!).
- For the safety ring, keep it simpler and just let a very small number of photographers/videographers to position themselves inside the ring. Riders may communicate directly with them as to where they can and cannot be. Wide angle pictures are very dramatic in events like that!
If requested, I can write those as rules, but there should be discussion on them first.
Comment
Thanks to Jenni and John for doing all the hard work here. I made an actual proposal. It's not perfect, but it's much easier to make revisions and keep track of the current version if we have an actual proposal.
Comment
John, treating different competitions with all the same rules would just be plain stupid. We're trying to make the rules evolve do they got each competition better rather than fit them all in the same boat. If we choose the later some rules will be useless and sometimes restricting. Let's treat different competition with different rules, wouldn't make sense to me to do otherwise.
That being said, I, once again agree with Scott s comment.
Comment
John, your suggested comments look good to me, except for #3. I'd prefer not to use jargon like "to rubber" without clearly defining it in the rules. Obviously, the riders and judges know the intent of the rule, but I could see someone snarky trying to bend the rules if it is not clearly defined. But, this is also because I've been doing technical writing too long, and we're not supposed to use any phrases/variables without defining them. :P
Comment
Scott, can you change the definition of the landing surface in the proposal so that it is not necessarily made of wood? Maybe "flat piece of material of dimension...". Other than that, the rules in the proposal look good to me.
Comment
Maybe "Wood or Material with simmilar grip"
Wood is very much aproved here so it will appear in 90%+ I guess
Beside this I see no need to name peda and crank grabs in the first sentence as the rule discribes clear that it is impossible. Maybe its good for those who just read the first sentence ;)
Comment
The intent of that first sentence is to explain the goal of the competition as briefly as possible. Of the few people who ever look at this Rulebook, most will not read all of it, so the first sentence or section can go a long way to helping people understand each event.
While I expect wood will be the material of choice for the jumping apparatus, we shouldn't require it. Someday someone may want to use something else.